Shen Men Tao

[Darryl]

Split thread

Moderators Post

To avoid sidetracking, I've split this thread and removed the discussion regarding the above Book title and moved it to the relevant section.

I would also like to remind the readers and posters of this Forum that Sifu Stier is the current Grandmaster of Shen Men Tao and as such, this thread is an opportunity to ask questions and share knowledge about the Art, related subjects and so forth. Naturally, it is the perogitive of both Sifu Stier and the other Shen Men Tao Sifu's regarding what they answer and how they answer, so we ask that people keep any questions relevant, on topic and respectful.

Thank you

[grammatoncleric]

Dear Grandmaster Stier,
I have some questions regarding enlightenment.
What is the Shen Men Tao approach to that achievement?
Are you enlightened?
What is the greatest experience you've ever had of the Tao?

[Sifu Stier]

Shen Men Tao Spirituality

The Shen Men Tao approach to spirituality is to ask each of us to acknowledge that we are something more than our physical identity...i.e. more than the face we see in the mirror each day....and something more than our mental/emotional/educational identity...i.e. more than the sum total of our thoughts, our feelings, or our academic credentials (B.A., B.S., M.A., M.S., Ph.D., Ed.D., M.D., O.M.D., etc.). We must acknowledge that in addition to these personal attributes...there is also a spiritual component which fills and unites these parts of our being...but which is not adequately represented by them alone.

In order to explore the seemingly less tangible spiritual aspects of ourselves...it is suggested that this part of ourselves needs to be nourished and nurtured just as the mind and body do...with regular 'maintainance work' such as daily meditation and/or contemplative prayer practices in which all outgoing thought and energy and effort/attention is withdrawn from 'external' concerns (people, places, things) to be viewed and consolidated as an 'internal' component emanating from God as our part of the Divine Presence and Power in the Universe...however we wish to perceive this to be.

In this way...our personal experience of God...Tao...Cosmic Consciousness...or any other 'label' you wish to use...can become the growing awareness of the Divine Presence and Power in everyone and everything...and an increasing awareness of our Union with All as such. We can then 'allow' this spiritual component to manifest in us, through us, and around us for our greatest good...and the greatest good of All! We can thus become ever more Present in the Moment...Right Here...Right Now...with an Illuminated Consciousness that our Spiritual Path (Tao) is Part of ALL that GOD IS...and the GOD IS Part of ALL that we are!

Most spiritual adepts and seekers find it beneficial to have a 'Spiritual Director' to advise and assist them...preferrably someone more experienced and more wise than themselves whom they trust. This could be a Priest and Confessor, a Counselor, a Guru, a Roshi, a Sifu or Sufi....but someone who meets the spiritual...and perhaps religious...needs of their personal Path. It is best to share and discuss the details of your personal spiritual state and experieces ONLY with this Spiritual Director in order to avoid compromising your personal progress.

Lastly...just as it would normally be considered inappropriate for example to ask other people about personal information and details regarding their health or sex life...it is also similarly inappropriate to questions others about their personal spiritual life without their invitation to do so. I take no offense at having been asked such questions, but merely state the obvious as my reason for not answering them!

[Ray]

Dear Sifu Stier,
Could you tell us more about the history and characteristics of the Sun Style Pa Kua that you teach? For instance, what makes it different that other styles of Bagua Zhang? Thank you for your kind consideration.

Sincerely,

Divineshadow

[grammatoncleric]

Sorry Grandmaster Stier,
thank you for answering my questions.

[grammatoncleric]

Dear Grandmaster Stier,

in Shaolin Wahnam the training method for fighting discourages hurting each other (although accidents happen) in fact in a session the only thing you walk away with is slightly bruised arms.
I trained with another highly reputed internal martial arts school and from the outset you got hit, hard.
I was wondering what was the Shen Men Tao method of learning to fight?

Also in Shen Men Tao do you go from external to internal, or have a holistic approach from the start?

I recall you stating (I think ) that Shen Men Tao incorporates, calligaphy, poetry, art, etc into it's practice. I was wondering if you could go into more detail?

[Sifu Stier]

Re: Sun Style Pa-Kua Chang

Master Sun Lu-Tang's Pa-Kua Chang differs from other styles in the powerful simplicity of its movements. Unlike many styles...Sun Style Pa-Kua contains no Hsing-Yi Chuan or Shao-Lin Chuan postures in its Form Sets. Additionally, all postures are practiced with Circle Walking...both forward walking and backward walking (rare in other styles) as a moving Chi-Kung...with the Palm Changes performed when changing from forward walking to backward walking or visa versa...and when changing the direction of walking from left to right or visa versa. The Circle walking is practice slowly at first...with a synchronized Natural Breath to awaken, mobilize, consolidate and store the intrinsic energy...then increasing faster later on with a synchronized Reversed or Embryonic Breath for Fa-Jing applications on all striking and kicking techniques. Leg trips...sweeps...take-downs...throws...and projections are employed with any posture which potentially allows these applications....as well as every conceivable variety of open handed fa-jing technique. No fisted or punching techniques are included in the Form Sets at all.

Master Sun was the first Pa-Kua Master to teach and write extensively on the philosophical connections between the Eight Trigrams for which the Art is named...the physical postures associated with them...and the energy dynamics of these Eight Mother Palms as expressed in the Palm Changes of the Form Sets...and one of the few Masters to do so to date. This includes a number of separate Eight Trigram Mother Palm Form Sets such as the Earlier Heaven Fu-Hsi Trigram Set, the Later Heaven Wen-Wang Trigram Set, the Eight Elements Trigram Set, and several other variations of Trigram Arrangement Sets, as well as a 64-Hexagram Palm Change Form Set.

Sun's Style is characterized by very quick and agile footwork...and extremely rapid changes of direction while walking either forward or backward...all of which he was very famous for as a fighter or boxer during his lifetime.

[Sifu Stier]

Internal to Internal!

Dear gc:

Shen Men Tao training goes from Internal to more Internal...rather than from external to internal or visa versa. Thus...as students learn to more completely and effectively incorporate the Foundation Principles of the Internal Arts in their movement and intention...the practices become more internal by degree. Softness...Centeredness...Circularity...and Rhythm are often challenging for beginners to express exclusively in their postures. As a result...they are initially unable to fully manifest the characteristics of the Internal Arts until these Principles are further understood and experienced in their practice over a longer period of time. Fighting skills are developed through sensitivity drills and pre-arranged routines practiced with a partner...followed later in the training with 'free style' sparring which begins with light contact...but later increases the degree of contact allowed in order to encourage better evasive skills defensively...as these skills are of the highest priority in the Internal Arts!

The Five Excellences to which you refer are Art or Craft...Music...Poetry...Health and Healing Arts...and Physical Culture and Martial Arts. In Shen Men Tao...these Excellences are viewed as a kind of Old China style 'Liberal Arts' education...as well as a means of expressing the intrinsic energy or chi of the Internal Arts with a positive intention expression. In this way...practitioners engage in Self-Cultivation which enhances their own personal life experience...and which helps them channel their energy into pursuits which are an asset to Society at large...and to the communities in which they reside.

[Ray]

Dear Sifu Stier,

Thank you for the informative posts.


Best,

Divineshadow

[grammatoncleric]

thank you again, Grandmaster Stier.

[jpw]

My experience with Shen Men Tao Training

To Sifu and Other Discussion members,

I probably cannot add much depth to Sifu's comments. However, I can speak from experience training in Shen Men Tao. I was blessed to be guided by Sifu thru various health practices, basic artisit pursuits (basic due my limited artisitc inclinations ), while pursuing my martial arts training. There is no doubt this system has provided me an excellent set of skills,liberal arts exposure, and framework for internal martial arts beyond what I conceived existed. (Keep in mind, I am engineer by trianing and a quantative MBA , some hold that agasinst me).

When I met Sifu Stier, I understood the basics of fighting as I had done some karate, boxing and wrestling in Highschool. I knew I could learn alot more and wanted to learn a traditional chinese martial art. Additionally, i had been studying the basics of a Korean soft style with a master in Ausitn, Tx. The Master was an excellent performer and had fighting skills. I enjoyed the training, the school, the method, etc. but, I wanted to learn a Chinese system.

I found Sifu Stier thru a chinese acupunturist in Austin. I began study. First, I started with Hsing I and was thrown off by the soft, centered, circular rythmical focus. However, I did what I was told. After I while I began to learn bagua continuing with the 4 principles. Over time, I began to learn 2 person drills all the while working with the 4 principles. After a while, I started to get the yielding ability with the ability to apply. In many ways, the process seemed slow but, now and then, I would get leaps in awareness and application that continue to this day.

For example, several years ago, my ability to "unknowlingly" become the center and/or neutralize other peoples chin na developed and was useful when playing. In recent months, my ability to more "knowlingly" use footwork to "knowingly" become the center and/or neutralize chin na increased. That is, my awareness and ability went to a higher level at higher and higher speeds. This may sound like..oh...that is not much but, I feel blessed...I have skills but, my skills continue to evolve in many ways unpredictable by the obvious points of my practice. I had read about this, and Sifu suggested it would happen but,...(I always said) how are you to know unless you experience it directly? Well, I can say, I am experiencing it directly.

In my opinion, it is due to this internal to internal unfoldment. Not beacuse, of increased intensity of work out or hours of work outs, etc. In my opinion, it is due to the continued use of the principles as taught and application of internal practices. The unfoldment is what I was looking for prior to and during my intiial training with Sifu Stier. So, additional softness, additional, yileding, new applications, additional power, at some level without planning or attempted thought.

This is what many people train for. Thus, I feel really lucky to have this method. As, i know others do.

To be sure, I have more I can learn and ways I can improve my training. However, that interal to internal....has proven itself to me. Hope this 2 cents give some additional color. (forgive my typos)

later,

Sifu JPW

[Sifu Stier]

Rank and Certification

Much has been said on martial arts forums everywhere regarding rank and certification in different styles. Some styles incorporate a colored belt or colored sash system of ranking practitioners...i.e. white, yellow, green, blue, brown, black, and so forth. Oftentimes...a greater number of 'color' rankings are employed so students progress more gradually...and pay more 'testing fees' more often to achieve the coveted 'Black Belt'. Rank certificates are also awarded as well as the 'colored belt'. This is quite typical of the Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean styles. In most of these styles, a 5th Degree Black Belt Rank (Go-Dan) and higher is considered a Master Grade Rank. Traditionally, each style had a 6th-8th Degree Grand Master who was generally the only living practitioner of the that rank level for that style. Upon the death of the Grand Master...another Master of the next to highest rank level would be become the new Grand Master...as designated by the previous one prior to his death...or in some cases identify himself as the best successor by virtue of length of experience and a skill level superior to the other possible candidates, and promoted to the highest rank level.

Other Styles bestow certificates of rank only...i.e. Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, Initiate Instructor, Master Instructor, Grand Master, Great Grand Master, and so forth. In these styles...Grand Master Rank and beyond are usually considered Research Grade Ranks, and it is from this group of Masters that new Sets or Training Methods may be added to the style upon approval of the other Masters...especially the current Lineage Holder. This system of ranking is more typical of the Traditional Chinese styles. In some cases, a Black Sash may be awarded to Initiate Instructors...and a Red Sash or other color of sash to Master Instructors. This is the ranking system used in the Shen Men Tao System.

Some martial artists insist that these various designations of rank...especially Master Grade ranks...are strictly relative to the style of the practitioner and have no value or meaning outside the Association or Federation of that particular style. Thus...they say...these are not 'ranks', but 'relationships to a style' only. It has been my observation through the years that it is usually the 'want to be...but will never be' types who hold such views. These are people who have never been able to consistently discipline themselves to study and train in any legitimate, recognized style long enough and seriously enough to acquire higher ranks. I guess their assumption is that if they themselves were unable to do so...then nobody can! There's some real solid logic, eh? NOT!!!

It has certainly been true during the past 30 years especially...that many schools have marketed their styles for financial gain more than for the transmission of legitimate martial art skills and knowledge by selling rapid advancement on-site training courses, short term seminar training with certification, expensive video instruction formats, mail order rank certificates, and even newly created...and completely bogus styles and systems of which they are the Founder and Head Master. Ain't it great? Free enterprise at its finest!

However, when all is said and done...legitimately earned and awarded rank in any style should be capable of matching up well with those of similar rank and experience in other styles...whether in open competition in tournaments or in real life self-defense and fighting situations outside the school one trains in. The bottom line is that your hands are your proof of authenticity. Genuine skills can be demonstrated...or they can't. If the knowledge and skills are not readily forthcoming....how does a Belt, Sash, or Certificate of Rank validate you. And if the knowledge and skills gained through study and training CAN be demonstrated at will....these external signs of rank really aren't necessary!

[Ray]

Dear Sifu Stier,
Could you please share with us who invented the Shen Men Tao system and to the best of your knowledge, Wudang Chi Kung? Thank you for your kind consideration and generousity.

Sincerely,

Divineshadow

[Sifu Stier]

The Spirit Gate Path

Dear DS:

I have reservations about the use of the word 'invented' in your question...as the component arts which are the core of Shen Men Tao already existed as separate styles...and still do for that matter. Many people teach and practice each of the styles individually and exclusively....without the other two. These component styles once again are: Old Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan, Sun Style Pa-Kua Chang, Shansi Hsing-Yi Chuan, and Wu-Tang Shan Chi-Kung Fa.

Shen Men Tao as an organized System was initially developed in the mid-1930's of the last century in China by Sifu Lee Wing-Wah during the years immediately following the deaths of his primary Teachers...Yang Shao-Hou in 1930 and Sun Lu-Tang in 1932. Master Lee has always said that he was most influenced by the teachings of Sifu Sun...primarily because of Master Sun's high level mastery of individual styles from all three Internal Arts. As such...Master Sun brought a unique perspective to his teaching insofar as the relationship among these three internal arts was concerned. While Master Yang's skills were extraordinary in every way...he was peerless Tai-Chi Chuan specialist only whose teaching perspective was based solely on his vast experience with Old Frame Chen Style and Old Frame Yang Styles of Tai-Chi Chuan. Master Yang did not practice or teach any Pa-Kua or Hsing-Yi as did Master Sun.

Many of Master Sun's students chose to embrace Sun's Style of Tai-Chi Chuan as the final distillation of his lifelong experience with Internal Soft Style Boxing Arts. Master Lee did not. He believed that in order to duplicate Sun's example in fully mastering the Internal Arts...it made more sense to train each style individually...as if it were one's only style...just as Sifu Sun did...rather than training one Set only which blended all three arts into one routine (Sun Style Tai-Chi Chuan).

Additionally...Sifu Lee chose not to accept Initiation as an Indoor Disciple of either Master in order to remain free in his practice and teaching of the Internal Arts. He felt that the Indoor Disciple 'status' would limit him by formal oath and lineage responsibility to primarily practicing and teaching but one of the several arts he had learned. Master Lee also did not wish to disrespect the teaching of either Master Sun or Master Yang...as his love and admiration of both Masters is sincerely hearfelt and profound to this day.

These decisions left Master Lee free to compile from his own extensive training experience what he perceived to be the best of everything he had learned with equal gratitude and respect for everyone who had taught him. The final result of this process is what he named Shen Men Tao...the Spirit Gate Path...thereby refecting his direct experience of the component styles as a personal spiritual journey of self-cultivation...not just as martial art training only!

[Ray]

Dear Sifu Stier,
I am sorry about my inappropriate use of the word "invented" it was silly of me to do so when it is true that it is a collection of seperately practiced styles. Could you please tell me, to the best of your knowledge, the history of Wudang Chi Kung fa and Shansi Hsing Yi Chuan? Thank you for being so generous with your knowledge.

Sincerely,

Divineshadow