Joy

[Neuromantica]

Joy can open your heart.
And I think it gives you some energy.

But is it really the way to overcome suffering? Or is it just 'a positive emotion'?




---
As this question came up in another thread (X 'Is Chi Kung a waste of time?'),
so now here is the topic to talk wholeheartedly about joy, the way to overcome suffering and everything that is buzzing around it.

Also I'm silently hoping for David, Charles and George to join (and continue) conversation, (feel invited!), so that we can hear about your thoughts and knowledge.

En j o y !

[Andrew]

Excellent questions. But what is "suffering" and what is "positive emotion"?

[George]

But is it really the way to overcome suffering?

No, but it can be an indication of correct practice. Ultimately, even joy must be abandoned. Just like a boat that, no matter how comfortable, is useless once we have used it to cross the river.

But what is "suffering"

Impermanence and being trapped in it.

[Mark-)]

Excellent questions. But what is "suffering" and what is "positive emotion"?

Based on my experience so far, I think suffering is a state of mind, where you are disconnected from the cosmos.
When you draw a border in your mind between yourself and everything around you will get a different perception.
Out of this perception you will think and act according what is good for yourself and not what is good for everything/everybody. The Ego is growing.
Because of the "border", there is also is less exchange of energy and information between you and the cosmos.
All this leading to blockages like illnesses, emotional disbalance, bad actions / bad karma....

Like George said, joy might be an indicator leading you the right way out of suffering.

[Mark-)]

No, but it can be an indication of correct practice. Ultimately, even joy must be abandoned. Just like a boat that, no matter how comfortable, is useless once we have used it to cross the river.




Impermanence and being trapped in it.

Sorry, but i don't understand your sentence. Why do you say impermanence and being trapped in it is suffering? In my understanding everything in the cosmos is changing all the time. There is no permanent thing and no way to stop the changing. Wouldn't it be better to say: Not accepting the impermanence and beeing trapped in the illusion that we can stop the impermanence, is suffering?

[George]

Wouldn't it be better to say: Not accepting the impermanence and beeing trapped in the illusion that we can stop the impermanence, is suffering?

You can say anything you like - it will not help.

[George]

A better definition, though, from someone a little bit more competent than me:

THE NOBLE TRUTH OF SUFFERING (DUKKHA ARIYA SACCA)

“Now this, O Bhikkhus, is the Noble Truth of Suffering. Birth is suffering, decay
is suffering, disease is suffering, death is suffering, to be united with the unpleasant
is suffering, to be separated from the pleasant is suffering, not to get what one
desires is suffering ... This Noble Truth of Suffering should be perceived.”

[sancrica]

Dear Shaolin Wahnam Family,

Thanks all for your contributions in this thread. I am enjoying it greatly. :-)

While reading it one beautiful and inspiring answer from Sifu came to my mind. I am sure that most of the Shaolin Wahnam Family members have heard it from Sifu many times. I would like to share it with you:

"The teachings of the Buddha and great masters are simple. If you do not understand the teachings, it is not because they are complicating, but because you lack the necessary knowledge, wisdom or experience.

For example, the Buddha says that life is suffering. This first noble truth is simple, but most people misunderstand it. At the most, they understand it only partially. They mistakenly think that there is no joy in living, that the Buddha's teaching is pessimistic.

The misunderstanding is not because the teaching is complicated, but because many people lack the knowledge that the Buddha is comparing suffering in samsara or the phenomenal world, with eternal bliss in nirvana or transcendental reality." - Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit

Quote Source and Further Reading

With Love, Care and Shaolin Salute,

Santi

[George]

Is there suffering within joy?

[Charles David]

Smiling from the heart reduces suffering.

[Andrew]

If "suffering" is "Impermanence and being trapped in it", then isn't joy (an emotion and thus part of the phenomenal) not also a part or symptomatic of "suffering"?

[Mark-)]

You can say anything you like - it will not help.

Yes, talking doesn't help

[Mark-)]

If "suffering" is "Impermanence and being trapped in it", then isn't joy (an emotion and thus part of the phenomenal) not also a part or symptomatic of "suffering"?

I'm answering with Georg's words

...Ultimately, even joy must be abandoned. Just like a boat that, no matter how comfortable, is useless once we have used it to cross the river.

[George]

If "suffering" is "Impermanence and being trapped in it"

This is just my idea about the subject of suffering and like all ideas is also impermanent!

What follows is also just some ideas from a mix of some practice experiences and self-study I have done.
I am certainly not an authority on the subject, so anyone please correct me if I say anything wrong.

isn't joy (an emotion and thus part of the phenomenal) not also a part or symptomatic of "suffering"?

I think we should distinguish joy the emotion, which is the very nice feeling (I hope) everyone comes across in life, from joy that emerges out of spiritual practice.
This should be a very easy concept for Shaolin Wahnam practitioners to understand since even our most basic training gives rise to this kind of joy, even for relative beginners.
Pīti and Sukha are the technical terms for the two related factors.
These factors are no longer present by the time the fourth jhana is reached during concentration meditation practice (which is very much a part of our Chi Kung practice in Shaolin Wahnam and hence these factors naturally arise as part of it).
Because these factors have a beginning, they have and end and are therefore impermanent.
So we can not rely on them to extinguish suffering.

[George]

Smiling from the heart reduces suffering.

I agree, but how does it do that?