Sparring With Boxers and Wrestlers

[Grimlock]

My fault, DarkWolf, I should have refreshed my memory by re-reading the early posts before chiming in. Doh!

While I agree with your statement when the MA and boxer are both at the top of their games, I'm still not sure that what happened to Mercer would happen to any other boxer in the K-1 context.

Case in point: I believe I saw this same Remy fellow fight a hulk of a guy named Bob something. The hulk won by relying nearly exclusively on hand techniques (I don't remember him throwing a single kick or knee). The hulk could not continue in the next fight because of an injury (I think he broke his hand throwing a punch), so Remy (or whoever it was) fought for him in the championship and won.

Of particular note is that Remy (or whoever) had a definite kickboxing background and was throwing lots of kicks and knees. Also, Bob the Hulking Beast didn't seem to have particularly good technique -he mainly relied on his size and strength.

[Grimlock]

Alright, I just looked it up and it was Bob Sapp vs. Ernesto Hoost and Sapp outweighed Hoost by 100 pounds or so. I concede!

[Chiahua]

My imagination's too feeble to visualize a boxer and a MA at the top of their respective games... it's just too abstract. Just with the discussions of "X style is better than Y...", it overlooks the fact that training in the fighting arts is a personal journey. When we talk about the method, master, and student equation, isn't it the student that's most important?

[Sifu White]

My imagination's too feeble to visualize a boxer and a MA at the top of their respective games... it's just too abstract. Just with the discussions of "X style is better than Y...", it overlooks the fact that training in the fighting arts is a personal journey. When we talk about the method, master, and student equation, isn't it the student that's most important?

I believe you are absolutely right, The Student should be the most important. In fact your students should be the most inportant enity that you would have as an instructor.

Sifu White

[Andrew]

Remember that kicks are not allowed in conventional boxing. A fast hard kick from someone like Remy will be a difficult task to handle for many boxers because they just don't train for them. Now take Remy and Mercer, put them in a ring with BOXING rules .... that may well be a different story.

Andrew

[Sifu White]

Agreed on the rules bit. In sport, it all depends on the rules of the game. Boxer fighting with boxers rules would have a better chance to win than the Martial Artist, and visa versa. But, fighting itself, comes from the spirit of the fight, some do it better than other etc. A fight is a fight, how prepared are you for the fight? is the question. The more prepared you are for the fight the better your chances for the win.

Sifu White

[drunken boxer]

There are many factors which back up what I say, but I only have time to mention a couple of them. Happy to continue the argument next week!
For every person who practices kickboxing, there are probably 10 to 100 people practicing boxing. Therefore the level of competition is much much higher, if you don't understand this concept I'm afraid I don't know how to explain it. So generally the cream has to rise higher to get to the top. The speed, skill, fitness levels etc are much higher among boxers.
Kickboxers who switch to boxing usually struggle, whereas boxers who try the other code are usually very effective.
That type of sidekick whilst being very fast, is extremely slow compared to the jab of a boxer. A decent boxer would be able to slip or block that, a great one like tyson would be able to stand out of range and as soon as he sees the first flicker of movement (or without looking at all) slide in to punching range and open up.
A side kick to the legs or stomach is more difficult for a boxer to deal with, as I say he has to use his vastly superior footwork and footspeed to stay out of range and slide in when necessary as he would against someone throwing a (relatively) slow punch.
Who here has seen a boxer 'get inside' on a kickboxer, karateman etc etc etc? I have seen it a good few times, same result every time.
K1 is one thing - some of the UFC jujitsu guys would be a much tougher proposition for boxers. If someone like royce gracie were able to apply arm locks etc to mike tyson then tyson would have to submit or have his arm broken like any other man. The question is would a young mike tyson have knocked him out before he got a chance to do so? I certainly believe so.
Do I know of ANY martial artists who could have beaten a fit mike tyson? I certainly do, but they don't compete in K1.

[PhilH]

I asked Sifu Wong if a kung fu master could cope with a boxer, and he said emphatically that one could. Kung fu practitioners are trained to be able to kill, using hands and feet, and trained to be able to withstand attacks by weapons without being injured. They can fight to the death, boxers fight for points.

I had a picure of a young Tyson in my mind, salivating, butting, biting and trying to kill, but even didn't attack with a sword or spear.

On a different note here's a link to a Guardian article about K1. I think it would take more than a spear or a mawashi geri to subdue Bob Sapp!


Bob Sapp

An interesting quote by the writer of the article -

"But he is technically woeful: a failed American Football player, when he lifts his leg he looks like a dog going for a slash rather than a martial artist delivering a kick.."

I hope for his sake Bob doesn't read it!

[Mark A]

The player

Hi Folks,
The whole thing about fighter and system is that if that person has been trained well in a good system they will be good.

If a person has been trained in a bad system and they have good force and good skill(timing etc) Then they will be good but not sophisticated.

If you have one good technique and know how to apply it in all situations they you have a good technique.

Also it really does come down to the person expressing the art. If they are good and have good knowledge of tatics etc. Then you will have a fair chance in situations. It also comes down to who has the better attributes in fights etc.


Here is a true story I heard. There was a variety of martial artist of variety of systems. They were all comparing there arts and saying what they would do against this situation and this sytems etc.

A guy heard them and said to all of them that he could beat them if they were in his territory. All the martial artists got a bit offended by this so they took him up on his challenge.

The guy was water polo player so all the martial artist had to come into the watre to challenge him. This was an area that were not comfortable in the least.

All this guy did was to grab them and hold them underwater for a while until they stopped trying to attack him.


To gain an appreciation of water poloplayers, the next time you go to a pool try getting you upper torso out of the water using you legs only and then try holding it for about 30 seconds.


Thanks

Mark

[drunken boxer]

Phil,

Yes I agree, trust me I am in no doubt that a genuine kungfu master could deal with any boxer including mike tyson - even at his best AND armed with a spear
I am just saying that a K1 fighter could not deal with a young tyson.

Also good article about Sapp - "the purists despise him" - typical!
Same with that guy "tank" in the UFC. Purists hate the thought that someone can use speed, brute force and aggression to beat their fancy techniques! This is what I'm saying about boxers - the amount of people competing in boxing means inevitably the fastest, most aggressive, most powerful athletes compete in boxing. Why would K1 guys fight for relatively miniscule purses if they were good enough to challenge heavyweight boxers for millions?

[yeniseri]

idea is good

Sparring with boxers and wrestlers are a good idea that make one more complete in the art of choice. If you do not apply what you think you learnt, then you are lost. I have been hit enough times to remind me to keep my guard up and been thrown by wrestlers enough to get my act together.

So it is not superior art but man training to better just misxing it up with everybody to get a true value of the art.

[darkwolf]

My fault, DarkWolf, I should have refreshed my memory by re-reading the early posts before chiming in. Doh!

While I agree with your statement when the MA and boxer are both at the top of their games, I'm still not sure that what happened to Mercer would happen to any other boxer in the K-1 context.

Case in point: I believe I saw this same Remy fellow fight a hulk of a guy named Bob something. The hulk won by relying nearly exclusively on hand techniques (I don't remember him throwing a single kick or knee). The hulk could not continue in the next fight because of an injury (I think he broke his hand throwing a punch), so Remy (or whoever it was) fought for him in the championship and won.

Of particular note is that Remy (or whoever) had a definite kickboxing background and was throwing lots of kicks and knees. Also, Bob the Hulking Beast didn't seem to have particularly good technique -he mainly relied on his size and strength.

Hey bro,

Sorry to keep kill you with this but when Bob fought Ernesto Hoost, Ray Sefo, Mirko Filipovic he loss , sorry he won the Hoost fight because hoost got stupid and start trading punchs with the big guy, but before that hoost punished sapp with leg attacks quick hand speed and better Gung-fu. I don't know what he was trying to prove at the end, but the fight was stop do to a TKO and this guy out weights these fighters. holla back!

[darkwolf]

You guyz are killing me!
Mike tyson,Pleasseeee!! yes he's one of the strongest punchs and some speed, but 0 boxing skills. He beat people with fear! I aways said that if he met someone that wasn't A: scared and B: had a good jab, that they would win.

They're a lot of really great fighters out there that need to be put in the MA's Vs. the boxer way before tyson. Ali said that "a Boxer could not beat a Karate man". Holla back

[yeniseri]

kinda true

I would say that it is the man behind the art. I am a terrible boxer but I can learn alot from them.

One fights like an animal, if one can.

[Grimlock]

sorry he won the Hoost fight because hoost got stupid and start trading punchs with the big guy, but before that hoost punished sapp with leg attacks quick hand speed and better Gung-fu.

Yeah, I remember wondering why he abandoned his strategy. Maybe he got cocky? I think it was partly because, despite the amount of damage he did to Sapp's leg, leg attacks seem to not be valued very much in K-1, and don't really fit with the fight format. I mean, usually, by the time you've done any damage to the other guy's leg, the fight's over.

Still, despite Hoost's "punishing leg attacks, quick hand speed, and better Gung-fu" he lost, and that ultimately counts for more than what he did the rest of the fight, regardless of Sapp's size.

I have to say that in the limited K-1 I've seen, I have not been too impressed with the kicking. What I have been impressed with are the guys who throw combinations that flow seemlessly between punches and knee strikes. For some reason, that flow doesn't seem to be there when it involves kicking.