Sparring With Boxers and Wrestlers

[Omar]

Thats some decent wing chun. Shows how important it is to ask the way first and not just punch. Bong sau (last technique shown) is a beautiful pattern.

[Chiahua]

I have been wondering if short bridge/short stance would be at a bit more of a disadvantage when facing boxers (maybe a Yip Man lineage master would know what to do), since the techniques that sifu teaches are more characteristic of long bridge/long stance strategies.

[Jonny Say]

Dear Chiahua

I have alot of respect for Wing Chun (just for the record) but I pretty much agree with you here:

Are you are thinking about the "chain punches" in wing chun? If I'm not mistaken, they don't seem to have a "built in" defence, it's just fast successive punching. They also appear to be fast, short range punches. Unless extremely good with them, the exponent could be ignoring the principle "avoid strength, attack weakness". A boxer might have an easier time guarding against these punches than a wing chun style low kick.
Edit: no, chain punches are a bit more sophisticated than I thought: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVpd7rJxLBw
But still, using short against short doesn't strike me as being safe. Pun intended.

A skilful boxer will just hook round the chain punches (unless the wing chun guy is really powerful). If the same technique was used, in Shaolin Wahnam the cup fist is big boss offers wine, with safe coverage then this would be a good technique. Some wing chun guys I trained with did this, I trained with Master Sam Kwok previous to training with Shaolin Wahnam, and he taught to use a bridging arm to get on the outside gate then use strikes with coverage (either pac sau or lap sau).

I guess to summarise: without safe coverage a boxer can strike you at the same time.

[Jamie Robson]

Dear Chihua,

Of course, there are numerous and varied multiple strikes in Wing Chun (Hong Kong & Shaolin). Yes, one example would be the chain-punching method.
Done correctly, the practitioner bridges and tames while punching and can vary the angle, even direction, during the attack.

Many people agree that a progression is to sometimes remove the bridge, because no matter how well it is done, bridging still telegraphs to your opponent.
This point reflects the view that bridging is not the final word, regarding the principle of Asking The Way.
Indeed, there are times when bridging is of benefit and times when it is not.

The clip you provided was interesting.
You may have more insight into Wing Chun from seeing these Masters -

Sifu Yip Man - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JbNETKezmns
Sifu Ip Ching & Sifu Sam Kwok - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qnHlLiYmVXA

[Jamie Robson]

Hello,

In case readers think there is a contradiction between Jonny's post and my own, there is not...

In this discussion, Bridging has a different meaning to Coverage.
I agree that Coverage is always required, even if Bridging is not.

Thanks

[Jonny Say]

It is also interesting to note that Jamie is talking about higher level chain punching where as I am talking about the simple chain punch. He also reveals some secrets hidden in the open about higher level Kung Fu for lucky readers who pick them up!

[Charles David]

Jamie or Jonny,

Could you clarify what you mean by bridging?

Thank You,


Charles

[Chiahua]

Thank you Sihings, it's always nice to get some perspective from those exposed to other Shaolin arts.
By bridging, do you mean contacting your own bridge with the opponent's bridge, sort of like in chi sau or when you "lean" using single tiger?

[Jamie Robson]

Dear Chiahua and Charles,

Don't confuse yourself by seeking complex variations or interpretations of bridging, taming, leaning and covering.

Are we discussing for the sake of talking or are you planning to train?
My advice is, stop thinking and go try it.

You don't need to search out a boxer for the moment...a friend will do.
Ask them to attack while you try out the 'EXCELLENT SUGGESTION BY JONNY WHICH EVERYONE SEEMS TO HAVE MISSED'.

If you get hit, the advice was not wrong, you just need time to train it.
Direct experience is beyond words.

Good Luck

[Charles David]

Dear Jamie,

Thanks for your advice.

As for the

EXCELLENT SUGGESTION BY JONNY WHICH EVERYONE SEEMS TO HAVE MISSED

do you mean this:

Practice, practice, practice!

I, for one, am not discussing for the sake of talking. And yes, I am planning on training (in addition to training.)


Still,


Charles

[Chiahua]

Are we discussing for the sake of talking or are you planning to train?
My advice is, stop thinking and go try it.

Hello Sihing,
I was definitely discussing for the sake of talking, so I will heed your advice!

Best,
Chow

[Charles David]

...change immediately

Dear Jamie,

Thanks again for the marvellous prompt. Sparring with practitioners from other style is something that has been missing from my practice. I'm glad you picked up on this.

As it happened, I had recently been planning on getting together with one of my new colleagues who is an MMA exponent. Your post prompted me to call him up right away.

It was a really good first session--friendly, forceful yet injury-free. We plan to continue sparring.

Here are a couple of pictures: the left in motion, the right, stop action.

I will keep you posted.

With Shaolin Salutation,

Your Monkey Uncle,

Charles

[Jamie Robson]

Dear Chiahua & Charles,

I'm pleased my advice was of use to you.

Best Wishes

[Dougie]

Thanks to Sifu's Jamie and Jonny. I finally got round to sparring with my Kung Fu brother Ian today and we have already scheduled another session next week and thereafter.

I wanted to try countering a boxer as i am of the same view of DrunkenBoxer that it is the closest i will meet on the street so, from my bow arrow stance facing an orthodox fighter with the classic jab,cross,hook i'd brush the his jab from the outside (inwards toward the attacker) , thread (i am not sure this is the correct term for this) the right cross with the same hand. From here i could tame his right arm and counter or i could anticipate his hook and intercept it directly (the name escapes me but i could use the counter to hang at a corner for example with a corresponding strike to the head) or as another example i could step back and execute Happy Bird when he throws the right hook as in http://www.shaolin.org/video-clips-3...g-03/bc089.avi

I'm just testing the water here - some of the stuff that my seniors talk about is lost on me at this stage.

I'll just add that i did actually try the above counters tho instead of philosiphising over them I much prefer, the brush,thread,tame mostly because i'm useless at kicks.

All the best
Dougie

[Jamie Robson]

Dear Dougie & Ian,

Great work, I'm very proud of you both discovering that 'direct experience is often beyond words'.

See you in class on Monday,

Sifu