Faith & Personal experience

[Darryl]

Hi folks,

This thread is about faith in general, not faith in a particular religion, martial system,specific person or idol. I wish to discuss personal faith. I also wish to discuss 'blind faith' since they are commonly seen as the same thing.

To put the conversation in context, whenever discussing or learning anything new in Shaolin Wahnam, our tenant is not to accept something on faith alone (regardless of who is saying it) but to give it an honest shot and evaluate the results after a certain timeframe.

An example would be practicing Chi Kung. If you did what you were told to do and didn't deviate from the instruction in any way, then by the above tenant you could expect to achieve the results within a suggested timeframe (not your suspected timeframe). If you didn't achieve the results, then you would have to ascertain why. If you have not trained properly or decided to 'enhance' your training, then you have not given it an honest shot.

This is just an initial post to start the debate and I will write a more detailed explanation of the trainined method later.

Cheers,

[xcubic2002]

Faith Wanted: Dead or Alive!

General faith would be something along the lines of: Ifll buy my train ticketc catch the trainc reach my destination, i.e. the train wonft explode or crash or derail; I will get there.
Personal faith goes like: Ifll do it because I have to orcelse (bad things can happen); Ifll do it and if it doesnft work at least I tried; Ifll do it in order to achieve whatever and when I have achieved whatever that is, then Ifll know for certain if it was worth it or not.
Blind faith also graces us in many beautiful shapes and formats: Cfest la vie; He, she or it is worth it; Optimism with a high sugar intake and brain on the back seat
Sometimes the three blend themselves into each other so perfectly that no one can tell where on finishes and the other starts.
We see what we wish to see and in order to prove ourselves right we make use of faith in many uncanny ways. Some folks will themselves to health or richness or society; others will themselves into sickness or poverty or loneliness. Simply because these chaps are so certain of their thoughts, that their minds will not accept it any other way.
Whatever the internal or external influences, faith is only the mind playing on itself.
Itfs like as if it got bored of what is and decided to try a new somewhat all of itfs own making.
What most people forget though is that faith is not in control here. You are. You set the parameters for your faith, or at least you are supposed to. If you decide to let it be on the autopilot, then all manners of things can happen. Then againc wonft it anyway?

P.S.: Hey Darryl, What a neat idea this thread! I look forward to see what our brothers and sisters will make of it.

[KungFuJoe]

Hi Darryl,

I enjoyed your post.

Actually I've been thinking a little bit about this lately.

An interesting thing about Western religions is that they require you to make a leap of faith. If you are a Christian for example, you must have faith that Jesus was resurrected.

Initially this is a leap of faith, but in the long run if you behave according to your faith in a manner Christ taught, you start to see the belief as more and more factual. As you live more and more as a good person and practice compassion, forgiveness, etc., the story seems less and less far fetched until one day you might accept it based upon personal evidence (i.e. what was my life like before this relative to what it is now and is my faith the difference?).

I expect Shaolin works the same way. People say "wow, I thought I was healthy before a learned this!" Initially you accept someone elses word on the quality of the Shaolin arts and begin training... then after a while you see the benefit for yourself and you are using evidence as much as faith in the master's word. Then before long you have all the evidence you need.

[Andrew]

Nice topic Darryl!

Maybe a little bit of my personal experience to back up the comment on Wahnam's philosophy of not accepting on blind faith. I started stance training because Sifu said I should. I then concentrated on Golden Bridge - because Sifu told me too. I did so "blindly" but with a healthy scepticism. Only after several months of regular practice (well about a year) did I have any proof that I had developed some internal force (proof from other peoples' experience of me .... if that makes sense).

Does that mean I now accept everything Sifu says just because he says it. No. I don't think he would want me too either.

Andrew

[chiron]

faith. that if you die you die. so what,... worse things could happen

[chiron]

also that you've got enough good karma to still be here...and you know youre a good person and god needs you and isnt going to erase you just yet, becuase you have so much to give! lol

[Niall Butchart]

Faith or Experience

Sifu,
the thing which most sticks in my mind from my first class is your advice (broadly) "don't take my word or anyone elses word for it, practise diligently for a fair period of time then decide for yourself" This is a fundamental tennent of Shaolin but it seems overlooked by some people on this forum, mainly those who are not Shaolin Wahnam students. I had to have a certain degree of faith that what you said would be worth my while practising. This was not blind faith though, as one of lifes super skeptics I am always ready to say, "aye, right then!"

However other than that it was all my experience. My experience has been that not only did everything happen as suggested but many more wonderful and unlooked for facets of Shaolin Wahnam opened up.

I now have faith in the KungFu practised and its ability to add immeasruably to each life. However this faith has arisen mostly from direct experience. That said I did read Sigungs book 'The Art of Shaolin KungFu' in March 2003 and knew then it was something special and worth looking into.

Reading this forum, it is striking that those who seem most at odds with the teachings of Shaolin are those with no faith in the Shaolin arts and almost alway no direct experience of them.

Cheerio veryone

[joko]

Thanks selva, and Niall Butchart, for resurfacing this thread. I missed it.

Certainly this is a very interesting topic to discuss.

This is just an initial post to start the debate and I will write a more detailed explanation of the trainined method later.

Has Sifu Darryl written the more detailed explanation somewhere?

Thanks,
Joko

[Ronny]

From the strong modern scientific view faith does not exist and therefore is completely useless! But why then are some acclaimed scientists nevertheless religious? What they do in their work and what they belief in their private life is very contradictory. They know that in the end every material thing in and outside our word irrespective of its size and consistence is made up by billions of molecules. And they also know that in reality every single molecule is empty. Conclusion: Everything is empty! But when everything is empty (still speaking from the modern scientific view), then everything we or other species and non-species do is for nothing, it just doesn’t matter. The whole history and development would be for nothing. Every life would make no sense! But this “total eclipse” situation a human being (and also other beings) just can’t accept not even a strong modern scientist! This is the reason why even scientists belief. Of course there are other reasons but they are more individually.

Note: I’m personally not a scientist and I don’t consider the above quote as ultimately true.

[Damian Kissey]

Faith & Experience , Fate & Freedom

Faith begets Experience , Fate begets Freedom

Having assessed myself as a physician ( confirmed by my better half who is also a medical doctor ) to be physically not ill , i started an experiment ( after my application has been accepted by Sifu , of course ) of practising the Shaolin Arts with the aims of enhancing physical health , practising a wholistic self defence program , embodying positive emotional attributes and improving mental capabilities . I have a base respect and provisional faith ( based on preliminary data from others’ experiences) in Sifu and in what Sifu teaches.The aims are gradually being attained after a few months of correct practice , and more positive results after a few years of experiment : able to do more physical work at clinic & home , much more self confidence without needing to involve in bar brawls , better emotional tolerance & less selfish &more will-power , increased mental focus etc.My spouse did a similar experiment and attained similar results . Reviewing the experiment’s objectives and data , i now conclude that the Shaolin Arts are efficacious . Conclusion : now i have self experience-based faith or known a truth .

Blind faith , to me means , acting ( in mind or in deed) before obtaining provisional evidence ( e.g , to digress , while investigating Sifu’s kungfu background i even managed to get a personal testimonial from a retired Malaysian senior police officer who’s not affiliated with Sifu’s school , about how Sigung Ho successfully protected himself & family in his house compound without seriously injuring / killing anyone from an armed gang of more then 30 assailants intent on murder in the early 1970s …..Sigung , despite being the victim, was initially remanded by the police and the injured gang leader was influential ; later the Judge dismissed the case …..but not before Sigung Ho smashed to pieces the robust hard-wood witness-stand using his cosmos palm as part of his court defence …..well , lets keep that story for another day ; after all you need to do your own investigation and don’t depend absolutely on my experience ).Blind faith also means : continuing ,despite non-achievement of aims , without identifying the cause : is the Art or student or teacher lacking ? One , both or all 3 factors ? Then proceed scientifically , as any genuine Art or Teacher can withstand the testing rigors of genuine Science .If non-success is a student factor , re-do the experiment correctly : if not redone , the experiment is incomplete and do not draw non-scientific conclusions.If the scope and depth of the Shaolin Arts ( Chi Kung , Kungfu and Zen) are wide and profound , it is also blind faith (in a wider sense) to absolutely proclaim it’s total ( the 3 Treasures ) efficacy when we have only successfully sampled part of the Art : as Gautama Buddha said gistly”Don’t take my word on faith alone but experience the walk yourself “.

Considering the vast map of “The Shaolin Arts “ made available to any deserving experimenter by present and past ultimate scientists ( the scholar-warrior-monks…..connoting the mental , physical and spiritual aspects of a Science) , it is not a trivial decision to walk the path , for it is a life long ( many lifetimes , in fact , according to the enlightened Teachers) experiment …..a serious life long investment of energy and time with it’s attendant scientific rules ( the 10 Shaolin Laws , the 3 Golden Rules , etc ) : experiments with short term objectives ( but still keeping the overall view of the Art in it’s total potential) for some ( to cure hypertension etc.) , experiments with long term aims like achieving vitality & longevity for others , and for those who are ready ,experiments to achieve ultimate enlightenment that may take one or many lifetimes.

Reincarnation , life after death , other dimensions , Shaolin Arts , Buddhahood , Jesus , big bang ?: don’t take nobody’s word for it . If you don’t believe because somebody said so , it’s blind faith.If you believe due to someone’s statement , it’s blind faith.If you don’t know and you are not interested to find out from self experience : that’s your birth right but don’t go around telling people it’s true or untrue . If you cannot decide because you have not completely investigated in the true scientific spirit ( ECGs,EEGs,Xrays,CT scans ,MRI scans,intellectualizing ,etc …..will not be enough as i know from experience , but hey , don’t just take my word ) or the experiment is still ongoing : that’s your right too.If you don’t believe after investigating to the best of your ability , it’s OK to disagree ( just don’t go to war & kill others about it) . If you believe from self experience ( corroborated by others’ experience ) , it’s OK too and you may decide to help novice scientists who are interested ( just don’t go around forcing it down peoples throat) .

The truth is : all our lifes , there is not a single action ( in thought , word or deed ) taken without some degree of faith for the simple fact that we don’t know everything ( healthy skepticism says :“except perhaps the Enlightened Ones”)…..the proverbial “leap of faith”.Most of us honestly don’t absolutely know what will actually happen after death or where we came from ( perhaps bought by your parents from a Gypsy for a farthing ).We have faith that …..we are that same person who slept and then woke up , the sun will rise again tomorrow , sight & hearing are intact come next day , traffic will stop when red light , pilot has valid flying license( well , did any of you check when flying back from Wei Foong’s wedding ?) , the last money change was genuine and not counterfeit , our last meal was not poisoned and one day we will all die .
But , hey , don’t get paranoid about all these : it’s natural and good to have some faith while living .Otherwise we will be constantly paralysed contemplating our next move while time and life pass us by ( or worse a drunkard will run you over-intellectualizing your footing on the zebra crossing ) . In this Shaolin Wahnam School , we say : let go and let “God” , wu wei , enjoy and relax in ones action, go with the chi flow …..of course , while regularly correctly practising our lifes’ roles and the Shaolin Arts , keeping our lifes’ aims and objectives in view and guided by The 10 Shaolin Laws .

Fate or Karma ? Have we any say in the decision to be born …..a human being , boy or girl , in the West or East , in a happy or dysfunctional family , in a manger or in a mansion ? The total permutation of causes and effects have made us appear in this world : we have no choice in having some faith while undergoing this experience called life .No choice , no Free Will ? The sages who have absolute free-will and not bound by Karma taught : ignorants only have predetermined or conditioned free-will…..like pieces on a chess board , freedom of choice to play the compulsory first move but trend of the game is irreversibly decided henceforth for all players ( black and white in this case).The sages also taught , based on experience that is predictable and repeatable , that an ignorant can become Enlightened and that every Saint has a past and every sinner has a Future.
When did we make our first move? Was it before our grandparents were born or was it a minute ago ? Who are the other players that we have chosen to play with in this chess game called Life ? How to achieve total freedom ? No matter when or whom or how , whether in kungfu or in Life , in the Shaolin Wahnam School , our Sifu gave us a guideline : make every move a masterpiece …..the Art of Zen in daily living brings divinity to the mundane.

Wishing All…..Happy Living .

[Darryl]

Dear Joko,

After reading Dr Damian's beautiful post, I feel no need to write more.

[Luo Lang]

Great post Damian!

Was nice to meet you and your beautyful family again

regards,

Roland

[Akemi]

So many nuggets of gold in Dr Kissey's post. I want to emphasize this one:

No matter when or whom or how , whether in kungfu or in Life , in the Shaolin Wahnam School , our Sifu gave us a guideline : make every move a masterpiece …..the Art of Zen in daily living brings divinity to the mundane.

Thank you, Dr Kissey.

[joko]

Dear Joko,

After reading Dr Damian's beautiful post, I feel no need to write more.

Darryl Sihing, I agree with you. Hope we meet some day.

Dr. Kissey, what a wonderful time we had together.
Roland Sihing, how was your holiday? Will you go to Indonesia next time?

Hi, Akemi, hope to meet you some day, too.

Joko