What is Yiquan?

[Ovidius]

This is where we differ. I would not make the same assumption.

You are you and I am I, that's for sure.

To me, this is making a decision based on someone's reputation rather than on direct experience.

What decision... I don't understand, I just treat people we are talking about as equal. I am not evaluating anyone higher since I lack the perspective: I am a beginner and do not have experience about many teachers on this field. But I still have thoughts about people and obviously so do you.

Now that you brought this topic up, I think you would like to share your educated opinions about Sifu Chia and his students that you have met. Let's bind this somehow to the topic of the thread and say, do you think that Sifu Chia's or his instructors teachings and methods would be any use to any student of Yiquan? (Obviously you do not value Sifu Chia or his teachings very high since in your posts you do not entitle him as Sifu or Master.)

whether or not you've learned directly from Sifu Wong

No I have not learned from him directly and I do not want anybody here to falsely think otherwise. Sifu Zhang's basics of Yiquan is all I know from direct "his hands guiding my hands" experience. And I am proud of it.

[Antonius]

Panu,

I did not mean to upset you, nor did I mean to take this thread off topic. I was simply trying to make a point about direct experience, which is a lesson that Sifu Wong taught me, and one that I value greatly.

You previously said that you assumed Sifu Chia's methods were not mumbo jumbo, and you based that assumption on his having won the same award as Sifu Wong. To me, this assumption is potentially dangerous because it is based on reputation (both Sifu Wong's and Sifu Chia's), not direct experience.

To further clarify: I really did forget if you had learned from Sifu Wong, which is why I asked. I was not baiting you, if that is what you were thinking. I don't think most readers here care whether or not you learned from Sifu Wong or not. I think they just like your contribution to the forum.

As for Sifu Zhang, I'm glad to hear that you are proud to be his student, and I hope nothing I've said here was taken as an insult to your teacher. That was never my intention. If something I said came off sounding like an insult, then I apologize.

(Obviously you do not value Sifu Chia or his teachings very high since in your posts you do not entitle him as Sifu or Master.)

I think you have misunderstood me. I don't always use titles for masters/authors like Lam Kam Chuen or Wang Xianzhai or Wang Xuanjie. In fact, when I first read your posts about Sifu Chia, I was confused. I'm so used to seeing Mantak Chia or Master Mantak Chia that I didn't recognize the name at first.

do you think that Sifu Chia's or his instructors teachings and methods would be any use to any student of Yiquan?

I really can't answer that. I was looking forward to your opinion on this after taking the course.

But I personally think it's worthwhile to meet masters if you have the opportunity. I spent a lot of money on seminars with various masters over the years. Some of the seminars were good, and some were bad, but I still consider the money well spent.

Best regards,

Anthony

[MoMoJuice]

Dear Panu,

I found this thread very informative, and I enjoyed reading it thoroughly. It's obvious that you have lots of respect and love for the art that you are practicing. I have a lot of interest in Yiquan and have read a lot about it on the internet. I also have two of master Lam Kam Chuen's books. I truly believe if a person has the will and persistence to practice and go through all the different Zhang Zhuang levels explained in his book, then that person can become very very powerful (and healthy).

Thanks Panu and to all who contributed to this topic. And like Anthony said no one cares if someone here learned from Sifu (Wong) or not. We enjoy the sharing of knowledge, history, advice or whatever that we get here. But for those who have the chance to learn from Sifu in the future, then it is highly recommended

Respectfully,
MoMo.

[Ovidius]

Hello hello!

Anthony:

I was simply trying to make a point about direct experience

Thanks for the free lesson I do not disagree, but would like to add that most of our knowledge is still vicarious and we have to have some kind of positive trust if we are going to become experienced. While listening other peoples talk or reading books, I think people should have an attitude of "he or she has something to say, there must be something real behind it", and not "she or he has nothing worth to say, there is nothing real behind the words". This is what I mean if I say: "I assume that Sifu Chia's methods are not mumbo jumbo". There is no way to persuade me assuming that Sifu Chia's methods are totally mumbo jumbo before experiencing them directly, especially if the person has excellent reputation. The third option is just to be quiet about the things and wait for the experiences, but since this is a discussion board and being quiet all the time is not very social behaviour, I tend to choose optimistically the first option and to say something. In this way, I see no radical conflict between what you say and what I say. My words should not be interpreted as a sign of a dangerous blind trust but as a respect towards a person who has done much work on a field of making Qigong etc. known around the world. It is the same positive trust and attitude that you probably have towards Bruce Lee and his skills, although you have not sparred with him. Do we understand each other, Anthony?

I was not baiting you ... I hope nothing I've said here was taken as an insult to your teacher

You have not insulted anyone Anthony, I was just pondering why do you think I am on wrong tracks if I say in such manner. I have no hard feelings towards you or anyone on this wonderful board.

when I first read your posts about Sifu Chia, I was confused

Yes, the name is confusing, but I think Chia is the surname. Since I am obligated to pay respect towards Shaolin Wahnam's headteacher Wong Kiew Kit by calling him "Sifu", then I will equally entitle other acnowledged teachers (like Mantak Chia). My use of title in front of a surname does not always carry a meaning "I know from firsthand experience that he deserves his title".

I have been thinking how should I entitle Wang Xiangzhai since he is not among us anymore (Grandmaster and Sifu sound to my ears like living teachers), he was not a monk (Venerable is not an option), and he is still something different to us than the current Grandmasters. Any propositions?

I really can't answer that. I was looking forward to your opinion on this after taking the course.

I think Yiquan is a complete art and even to gain understanding to the basics is a hard job itself, but still I think it is not a bad thing to take a look over the fence sometimes. Let us see if I eventually drag my butt to that course, anyway I treat it in my mind as a curiosity.

Momo:

I found this thread very informative, and I enjoyed reading it thoroughly.

Thank you for your kind words Momo and to Anthony too

It's obvious that you have lots of respect and love for the art

Yes I do respect and love this art, it provides joy and exciting content to my life. The treshold how to learn and start doing basic things is not very high, but it needs love and respect to carry on. I try not to exhaust myself by practicing too much (nor to be lazy) -- I know that if practicing starts to feel like a huge workload, then I will quit soon, and that is not good at all.

I also have two of master Lam Kam Chuen's books.

Hey, have you got The Way of Power book?

[MoMoJuice]

Hey, have you got The Way of Power book?

Hi Ovidius,

Yes, thats the one I have. And also "The way of energy". Both are good books to read. I'm off to bed now, g'night

MoMo.

[Chiahua]

I have been thinking how should I entitle Wang Xiangzhai since he is not among us anymore (Grandmaster and Sifu sound to my ears like living teachers), he was not a monk (Venerable is not an option), and he is still something different to us than the current Grandmasters. Any propositions?

If memory serves, Si Jo is the title for the founder of a style, so perhaps Wang Si Jo or Si Jo Wang would be appropriate (first is the order in chinese, the latter in english).

[Antidote]

Hi Ovidius

I read The Way of Power and I liked very much.

I practice some of the exercices for 2 weeks, just to experience it, and I comfirm that the exercises are powerfull. Usually I practice 3 circle stance and Golden Bridge from our Wanham zhan zhuang repertoire and i applied the same skills to Yikuan zhan zhuang because i believed as I understand in the book that the essence is similar.

There was one dinamic exercise that I found very, very, very powerfull !

"Tortoise in the Sea"
I still practice sometimes cause I really love that exercise.

Can you elaborate about that exercise ? Do you practice it in the classes ?
I would like to know more about it.

Blessings

Antidote

[Ovidius]

Chi Kung: Way of Power

Momo:

Thanks for recommendation, I haven't got that Way of Power book (yet).

Chia-Hua:

Ok, I will call him Si Jo Wang Thanks.

Antidote:

Nice to know that you enjoyed Sifu Lam's Yiquan

"Tortoise in the Sea", hmmmm, the name itself doesn't tell me anything and unfortunately I don't have that book to take a peek. Can you describe it a bit?

Talking about The Way of Energy book dynamic excercises, I like Ba Duan Jin pattern number 4 (Looking Back Like a Cow Gazing at the Moon), and the finger excercise of page 148.

Here you can see people doing Mo Ca Bu, the walking excercise which is also called "friction stepping". The point is in the feeling of friction, as in every dynamic Shi Li excercise, like in this typical position, where imaginary ball is held and felt between the arms and chest, and arms are gently moved to different directions. Here is a bonus picture representing Sifu Zhang as a youngster. I guess it is a Shaolinquan pose.

[Chiahua]

Ok, I will call him Si Jo Wang Thanks.

This'll teach me to cite references without checking them first, cause it's actually Jo Si. Here is a link to the term. http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1752
Once again, YunXiang gets much gratitude for the Chinese Terminology threads. Kudos!

[Ovidius]

Jo Si Wang then ...good that you checked it anyway, I probably would have not noticed the error.

[beausimon]

Talking about The Way of Energy book dynamic excercises, I like Ba Duan Jin pattern number 4 (Looking Back Like a Cow Gazing at the Moon), and the finger excercise of page 148.
.

Hi,
Is there a chinese name for this pattern? I came across a pattern called
Xi Niu Wang Yue . Wonder if this is referring to the baduanjin pattern.

Thanks.

[Ovidius]

Beausimon,

Unfortunately the Chinese name is not mentioned in Sifu Lam's book. According to this page, Xi Niu Wang Yue, aka Rhino Watches the Moon, is a pattern from Yang style Taijiquan sword form.

[Ovidius]

The method of tension and relaxation in Zhan Zhuang

My teacher at the time said it was better to be too tense, then relax over time, rather than the other way around. Does your teacher say similar things?

I think here might be a key to understand what your teacher means, He Jingping writes:

Beginner usually don't understand the relation of relax and tension, and how to controll balance between them. So of course they are not able to understand the concepts of "relaxed but not loose, tense but not stiff, relax and tension interrelated" and "there is relax in tension, there is tension in relax". The way to make them understand the relation between relax and tension is to make them first understand what tense means, and then what relaxed means.

The practitioner can just tense muscles in some part of body, to know what tense means. Then he can relax the tensed muscles as much as possible, to get the feeling of relaxed. And then during zhan zhuang practice he will experience that when some part of body gets sore, it is tense, and when thanks to adjustement he gets rid of soreness, it is relaxed. This way he is seeking comfort of spirit, muscles and breath. And this is "relaxed but not loose, tense but not stiff".

About the names of postures:

Wang Xiangzhai opposed giving specific names to postures, because it would leadn the practitioner astray. After years of summing up his experience, Wang Xiangzhai stopped using the names which he created earlier for specific postures

He Jingping also thinks that Yiquan style of Zhan Zhuang is medical qigong:

But because some instructors were not able to understand properly theoretical principles of zhan zhuang method, they mixed zhan zhuang with so called "emission of qi", calling it real tradition of zhan zhuang, while it is a big mistake and is opposing basic principles of the zhan zhuang method. This created a lot of misunderstandings. Actually Wang Xiangzhai's zhan zhuang, which is kind of medical qigong, has it's own specific theoretical principles and practice methods, with strong basis in science.

Anthony thinks the opposite, as he stated earlier. What does this "emission of qi" mean in this context? Does it just mean guiding qi around the body in a certain standing position?

[Ovidius]

Objectives of Yiquan

Seems that the only absolute is combat efficiency and whether it makes you happy?

I'll let Sigung Yao Zongxun (1917-1985) to clarify the objectives of Yiquan (bolding mine):

When we talk about practicing martial art, there are three main aspects: health, satisfaction of studying, and self-defense. Health means getting rid of ilnesses, cultivating health. Satisfaction of studying means that we study and research the principles on which martial art is based, getting great satisfaction from this. Self-defense means ability of fighting. All those aspects are interrelated. There is no martial art if one of them is lacking. If practicing martial art is not good for body, so why should martial art exist? From another point of view, what can you achieve in martial art without good health and enthusiasm. And if the martial art is not based on scientific principles, if you blindly chase some mirages, isn't it opposite to the basic sense of martial art? This way you not only waste a lot of precious time, but it is not good for your health and spirit too. So you must seriously consider those questions.I

According to yiquan's point of view, practicing martial art, you should develop body and mind. Then you should reasearch it, checking what is valuable and what is not, further developing it. And then there is also self-defense. Fighting is not the main aim of practice of yiquan, but it is one of its parts. In first chapter it was already said, that yiquan is a specific kind of martial science. This science was developed on basis of xingyiquan, but it absorbed the best of various martial arts. Yiquan has very complete and consistent system of training methods.

I think this could be the answer to my question about the "qi emission", Yiquan is not doing the "heavenly circles":

Yiquan zhan zhuang is very different from other systems zhan zhuang. This is not just static practice. The main aim is not strengthening muscles. Yiquan health zhan zhuang is different from qigong too. We don't talk about small or big "heavenly circles", we don't concentrate on dantian, we don't control breath. Everything is natural. Focused attention, relaxed body, natural breath is enough. This is training while resting.

In this way, Sifu Chia's and Jo Si Wang's Zhan Zhuang systems differ: Sifu Chia's Zhan Zhuang is all about the "heavenly circles".

Yiquan is not Zifa Dong Gong:

Martial art is about great degree of co-ordination between mind and body. If body is not working, the mind activity is 'empty'. If mind is not engaged, body movements are 'blind'. No martial arts expert would rely his skill on "automatic qigong" (zifa dong gong).

Yiquan is not same as Ling Kong Jing (empty force):

Some people think that yiquan uses so called "empty force" to defeat opponent withouth touching him. This is a big misunderstanding.

In this way "normal" Yiquan style of Zhan Zhuang differs from the one taught by Sifu Paul Dong.

Sigung Yao's whole article can be found here: http://www.yiquan.com.pl/artykuly/enggcy.html

[Ovidius]

Antidotes favourite

"Tortoise in the Sea" - - Can you elaborate about that exercise ?

Now I know what you mean. I found the name from Sifu Bo Jiacong's DVD that I have. It is written "Mystical Tortoise Come Out of Water" (the spelling is absolutely horrible on that DVD).

Yes, I guessed correctly, the "typical excercise" link I provided earlier shows people doing that, and here is a videoclip showing one way to do it: http://www.yiquan.com.pl/img/ycgshili.mpg

I learned doing it a bit differently than in the above video. In the video, hands are relatively static and body does most of the moving. The version I know moves also arms. But this principle is still the same in all versions: if the hands move, then the trunk moves too. When hands move up, then body goes down and vice versa. The "dead movements" (I refer to videolink where Sifu Montaigue explains this in Taijiquan context) are not allowed.

Very lovely excercise.