What is Yiquan?

[Ovidius]

Hi to everyone!

Here you can find a very short article of Grandmaster Wang Xiangzhai about the fundamentals of Dachengquan (Yiquan):

http://www.yiquan.com.pl/artykuly/engwangdachengquan.html

Yiquan people never ever talk about chi, they talk about force or feeling Mao Dun Li while practicing, for example, Zhan Zhuang. Mao Dun Li is a "contradiction force" and as an experience it is something like this: when moving your hand (directing force) in one direction there must also be a feeling of something moving the opposite direction. In movements, there should be "resistance", like moving a leg in a mud or moving a hand in a water, or like springs are resisting the movement. Hun Yuan Li is the state of "original force" manifesting in a human being, a natural state that Yiquan trainer aims to achieve. It means (according to my teacher) a state when Mao Dun Li is experieced equally in all the directions of force. Please let me know what do you think about this kind of philosophy? How much is it in conflict with your (Shaolin Wahnam) principles?

When doing moving excercises, my teacher emphasizes that if one part of body moves, then the whole body has to move too. In the beginning the movements should be bigger -- the masters movement is no-movement at the physical level. In my opinion Shi Li (force testing) excercises are quite similar to Dao Yin or sinew metamorphosis ones, except (as far as I know) this "whole body must move" thing. In practice it means that when I push my palms down, I feel and rise my head, and when I rise my palms, I squat a bit. Although the excercises are very hand or leg oriented, the force should spread all over the body, even to hair. I remember Grandmaster Wang saying in one text that after a ten years of diligent practice, your body will feel like filled with lead, and if you raise your hand, it will feel like a weapon.

There are also walking excercises called Mo Ca Bu (friction step). Here is my teacher totally immersed in the Mo Ca Bu training: http://www.uta.fi/~fitikl/zenshindojo/ZHANG2.gif

Best wishes,
Panu

[Ovidius]

One conflicting thing that I am immediately aware is Grandmaster Wang's negative feelings about all the forms and form using martial arts, like Tai Chi Chuan. In some text he says that the one who knows the core of fighting feels sick after seeing someone doing beautiful patterns with a stick. But you have to understand that he did not only talk but also matched with a lot of people and saw the degeneration of Tai Chi Chuan (and other martial arts) to a fancy forms. He believed that Tai Chi Chuan was usable, had the power, but now it lacks it.

Still we have to remember that he did lose some boxing matches to a traditional Kung Fu forms using opponent

In 1923 Wang Xiangzhai together with Xu Shuzheng went to Fujian province and became instructor of martial art in this province's army. He met there Fang Qiazhuang, a master of southern white crane style. Of ten fights Wang lost six. But Fang said that he doesn't regard himself as winner, because there is very little difference between their skill level. In the same year Wang met another master of white crane style - Jin Shaofeng, with whom he practiced and disputed a lot.*

Above quotation from "Yiquan anecdotes": http://www.yiquan.com.pl/enganecdotes.html

[Luo Lang]

Kiitos

Hey Ovidius,
Kiitos-many thanks for introducing us into your Gonf Fu style. It is very informative and I really like the statements your Sifu has given in the interview.
Actually I don't know much about the priciples you have mentioned, so therefor I wait for answers of others who may know more about that.
Nice to know that also other Sifus advice against doing improper training which can lead into serious physikal, menthal, emotional, spiritual problems.

In some text he says that the one who knows the core of fighting feels sick after seeing someone doing beautiful patterns with a stick

Can imagine...Sad but that's how it is. In my surounding are many many Taijichuanschools which teach a kind of flowery Taiji. The most funny thing is when those instructors start to say: you know we only practice Taiji for getting healthier...or: I don't believe that those movements are meant to fight...

He believed that Tai Chi Chuan was usable, had the power, but now it lacks it

Sifu and and most of his student still believe that Taijichuan is usable for self-defence! The same for Gong Fu!

Nice links!

I wish you all the best with your training and I am looking forward to hear more about your style, your training and of course of your experiences.

Respectfully

Roland

[Antonius]

If you read Wang Xuanjie's book on Dachengquan, he shows the same disdain for forms. For the first half of the book, he frequently disparages those arts that focus on practicing form. But the 2nd half of the book shows various forms in detail! How do we reconcile this obvious discrepancy?

It's obvious to me that there is a basic misunderstanding. I see the arguments of Wang Xiangzhai and Wang Xuanjie (his student) as being similar to Sifu Wong's argument, i.e. that if you only train form, you are wasting your time.

No genuine master in the history of martial arts ever attained mastery without practicing form in one way or another. On the other hand, no genuine master in the history of martial arts has ever attained mastery with ONLY form.

See my signature for a simple summary.

[Sifu Stier]

Re: Yi-chuan and Ta-cheng-chuan

Gentlemen: You have all made excellent posts on this subject. I have elected to add some comments here from my lengthy experience with these styles. Hsing-I-Chuan, Xing-Yi-Quan, Yi-Quan, Ta-Cheng-Chuan are really just different names for the same art. The Foundation of these is the Five Element Methods (Wu-Hsing-Fa) and the Twelve Animal Forms (Shr-Er-Dung-Wu- Hsing). The major styles differ mostly in the 'animals' included in their respective list of twelve, and also in their stylistic movement interpretation of the Foundation material, but are united in Principles, i.e. Relaxed, Rooted,
Circular, and Rhythmical. They all share a training emphasis on Internal Taoist Alchemy (Tao-Yin) as well in which Overt Energy (Ching/Jing) is exercised and transformed into Concealed Energy (Chi/Qi) which is nurtured and refined in order to manifest Mysterious Spiritual Energy (Shen-Li). The traditional name Hsing-I-Chuan (Form of Intention Boxing) was changed by the late Master Wang Hsiang-Chai to simply I-Chuan (Mind/Intention Boxing), and later to Ta-Cheng-Chuan (Great Achievement Boxing) to reflect the efficacy of these methods in completing the Internal Alchemy Process, the Great Achievement! Once this Internal Process has been successfully completed, the mind alone is capable of exercising, maintaining, and projecting the Chi without further need of the physical Form Sets, hence Sifu Wang's rejection of them at that point in his own development! However, there is no substitute for Form training in any martial art, in my humble opinion, while on the Path to Mastery...and beyond in the Research Phase of continued training!

[Luo Lang]

Dear SifuStier,
Many thanks for your enlightning post. People can feel that your statements are comming right out of your open heart.

Once this Internal Process has been successfully completed, the mind alone is capable of exercising, maintaining, and projecting the Chi without further need of the physical Form Sets

mind leads chi chi leads movement-is there a analogy to what you have discribed? Sifu Wong performed this advanced skill in the Dragon strengh set, which you can download. Allthough there is actually movement, the movement is only lead by chi which is lead by mind.

exercising, maintaining, and projecting the Chi without further need of the physical Form Sets

Very very advanced Masters sit in lotus to work with chi without any external movements...

Nice from you sharing your knowledge!

Respectfully

Roland

[Sifu Stier]

Ancient Taoist Formula

An ancient Taoist Formula relating to the recent posts in this thread is as follows: "The Mysterious Energy of Divine Consciousness (Shen) gives birth to Intention (Yi); Intention directs Concealed Energy (Chi/Qi); Concealed Energy manifests as the Overt Energy of Form and Circumstance (Hsing/Xing); Form and Circumstance reflect the Mysterious Energy of Divine Consciousness, thus completing a Cycle which Begins and Ends in Consciousness." Similar Western Culture religious and philosophical ideas are found in proverbs like "As a man thinks, so shall he be", "what you see (mentally-spiritually) is what you get", and so forth. Not surprisingly, Universal Truth can be found in all cultures around the world from ancient times until the present as there is but One Presence and One Power in the Universe and in our lives (Shen-Li-Tao). We need only look for its Presence with an Open Mind!

[Emiko H]

Thank you, Sifu Stier. It is an honour having you on our forum.

Best wishes,

Emiko

[Antonius]

Sifu Wong performed this advanced skill in the Dragon strengh set, which you can download. Allthough there is actually movement, the movement is only lead by chi which is lead by mind.

In the set, Sifu uses mind to lead Qi, and Qi to lead the form. However, that doesn't mean that Sifu is improvising the form. It's still a traditional set; the movements are just freer than usual.

How much is it in conflict with your (Shaolin Wahnam) principles?

I don't see conflict. I just see a different approach. The Yiquan (and Dachengquan) that I have seen and read about focuses on force training through zhan zhuang. The way they talk about Qi reflects their focus, as it should.

We talk a bit differently about Qi because our system includes Medical Qigong. Remember that most schools focus either on Martial Qigong, Medical Qigong, Mental Qigong, Longevity Qigong, or Spiritual Qigong. A few schools touch on two or three aspects. Ours touches on all five. For more on this, see: http://www.shaolin-wahnam.org/chikung.html

[Sifu Stier]

Re: Greetings!

Hello Ms. Emiko: Thank you for your cordial welcome! It has been such a pleasure for me to encounter a group of martial arts enthusiasts who are so open to communicating with someone like myself who is outside their own organization! All the best to you in your continued training.

One in Tao! Sifu Stier

[Sifu Stier]

Re: Various types of Chi-Kung!

Antonius: I believe that ALL chi-kung is ultimately Spiritual Chi-Kung as stated in the Taoist Formula posted earlier in this thread, and that the various types which you listed are really only varying manifestations of 'Intention' regarding the 'Overt Energy' application. Our Shen Men Tao System also incorporates all five types of chi-kung you listed along with several others as well such as sexual chi-kung, artistic chi-kung, musical chi-kung, and poetic chi-kung. In essence, therefore, every complete system of traditional chi-kung practice seeks to develop a more highly refined and dynamically expressed 'internal energy' in all areas of human life!

Light and Peace to all!

Sifu Stier

[Luo Lang]

Dear Sifu Stier,

sexual chi-kung

I know it's off-topic, but I have asked some questions about Chi Kung and sexualperfomances in another thread in the Chi Kung section.
I would like to hear your opinion to that theme.

Thanks in advance

Respectfully

Roland

[Antonius]

Antonius: I believe that ALL chi-kung is ultimately Spiritual Chi-Kung as stated in the Taoist Formula posted earlier in this thread, and that the various types which you listed are really only varying manifestations of 'Intention' regarding the 'Overt Energy' application.

I'm sorry, but I'll have to respectfully disagree with this.

There are many types of qigong that are completely devoid of Spiritual aspects, such as Iron Shirt qigong. Similarly, Hua Tuo's Five Animal Play and Wild Goose Qigong are devoid of Martial aspects. I would not consider Yiquan a school of Medical Qigong. Zhan Zhuang will boost the health of a healthy person, but it could be deadly to a person with certain kinds of illnesses.

Of course, this is getting into a semantical discussion because the term Qigong is a modern one. I'm using it as an umbrella term for all Chinese arts of energy cultivation.

[Ovidius]

I am very happy that this topic turned out to be so fruitful! Sorry about the frustratingly long post.

Luo Lang: I'll gladly write some more on topic and personal experiences. Your "sexual question" is not off topic: questions like how sex can influence on training and how training can influence on sex are very good. What happens when two bodies are in contanct? Can it be compared to what happens in martial art training (like in Yiquan) with a good partner? If energy developed by energytraining is versatile, then it is logical (or is it?) that sexlife would benefit from all training that enhances circulation of energy and increases the amount of it. This versatility of energy is in my opinion also the reason why strict demarcations should not be made between different types of Qigong. This does not say that there are not priorities (different focuses) in different Qigongs -- some can be more suitable ones for clearing a blockage in a certain internal organ than others etc.

Anthony: Because of the above, I think Yiquan can be used as a Medical Qigong and it is healthy to do. It was originally (before Wang Xiangzhai) propably not intented to be heath aid. I have never heard anyone died because of doing Zhan Zhuang, but yes, people have fainted while doing it. It is reasonable to assume that those people tensed their muscles, had already a serious health condition or did something other very wrong. Similar fainting happens also in the army where sometimes soldiers are put standing very long periods. Not to mention funerals, rock conserts etc. We have to also remember that Yiquan is not = Zhan Zhuang, but there are dynamic excercises (Shi Li etc.) too. If they are done as Qigong, then I see no reasons why we could not say that from this art we can find something for everyone, even for those who cannot do properly Zhan Zhuang. There are also sitting and lying versions of Zhan Zhuang/Shi Li that can be used if the current health condition does not permit standing.

I haven't read Wang Xuanjie's book on Dachengquan but it is a good point you make, how can anyone even consider to start studying an art if there is not any form? What we understand as a form is a good question; is a certaing alignment of body while doing Zhan Zhuang to be considered as a form? Yes, but there seems to be a stage when that is not needed anymore to produce certain result, whatever it is. Wang Xiangzhai writes in "The Right Path of Yiquan" (translated by Timo Heikkilä and Li Jiong):

When one starts to study, the methods of zhangzhuang are rather numerous [... some names of them...] Now, get rid of the numerous and move towards simplicity, take the strong points in each zhuang (pile) and combile them into one, namely hunyanzhuang. [Translators footnote says: Hunyanzhuang: "Perfect Circularity Pile". Perfect circularity means something not limited to any form or space, it does not refer to a certain fixed posture.]

So, I understand this like Sifu Stier writes:

Once this Internal Process has been successfully completed, the mind alone is capable of exercising, maintaining, and projecting the Chi without further need of the physical Form Sets

We have to remember that this "no form needed" does not mean "no need to practice". One very characteristic no-form thing taught at the very beginning is the importance of not binding your breathing (in or out) to certain stages of movements. Breathing in Yiquan is automatic, natural. This strive for automaticity of everything in real fighting is very characteristic. Actually some may see this as a paradox: while training you should concentrate on every movement and changes in your mind/body, however in a fight against evildoer it all should happen without you having to specially think about it, for example to do movements very slow so you have continuous feeling of Mao Dun Li. I remember a story of Wang Xiangzhai doing Tui Shou with, I think it was his student Yao, and something peculiar happened, perhaps a sudden burst of energy and Yao almost hit the roof. Yao then asked Wang to reproduce what happened but Wang said that it is not possible -- if I try it, then it will not happen. So, I think here we see that even the very skilfull masters are still humans, still similar beings like students who write on this forum "Chi Kung Experiences" section, beings who are adviced not to chase after, try to forcefully reproduce or to cling on those experiences. Peaks come and go, so do valleys (sometimes even valley orgasms?). No doubt masters life is more stable and the level of valleys is much higher than non-masters.

Sifu Stier: Thank you very much of your clarifications about the origins of Yiquan and relating it to Taoism That Taoist formula is quite difficult to understand... does this "Concealed Energy manifests as the Overt Energy of Form and Circumstance" mean that matter and its constitution at a certain moment of time is actually chi, and because it is chi, we have a potential access to it through our intention?

Best wishes,
Panu

[Antonius]

Because of the above, I think Yiquan can be used as a Medical Qigong and it is healthy to do.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. It can be used for health purposes, but that does not make it Medical qigong. Why? Because it focuses on building energy rather than clearing, and because it was never designed for that purpose. You can hammer in a nail with a wrench, but that doesn't make it a hammer.

I have never heard anyone died because of doing Zhan Zhuang, but yes, people have fainted while doing it.

A sick person practicing zhan zhuang can definitely make their situation dire. I've not only seen this in others, but experienced it in myself.

It is reasonable to assume that those people tensed their muscles, had already a serious health condition or did something other very wrong.

Not necessarily. I'm assuming the zhan zhuang practice is mostly correct. Even if it's perfect, it can be extremely damaging to add energy to a system that is in desperate need of cleansing.

some can be more suitable ones for clearing a blockage in a certain internal organ than others etc

Zhan zhuang is not suitable for clearing blockages in any organ unless you are already at a reasonably high level. This is the crux of my argument.

We have to also remember that Yiquan is not = Zhan Zhuang, but there are dynamic excercises (Shi Li etc.)

If those dynamic patterns focus on building (I could not say since I haven't seen them), then they are only slightly better than zhan zhuang. And if you don't include powerful cleansing exercises like Zi Fa Dong Gong, then it is not suitable for many illnesses.