Dahn Yoga Cult?

[Andrew R]

Hola everyone,

Today as I was exploring my new neighborhood, I visited a Yoga studio just to check it out. It was a really nice place and the lady working there was also very friendly. I briefly told her my story, and she said she'd love to do an introductory course with me to check my energy systems and teach me some simple exercises that she thought would help. I thought, "What they hey, I'll try it out."

I get home and look up the name of the system (Dahn Yoga) and get a whole bunch of hits about how it's a worldwide Korean cult. Awesome! Has anyone else heard of this system? I'm pretty certain I'm going to call and cancel my appointment, I don't see how I couldn't after reading the testimonials that are out there. While I thought she was very nice, I found it strange that the head instructor of the place had only been practicing for two years and "other stuff before that." She was also really eager for me to start going there, which is apparently common with that school.

Anywho, good thing I checked!

Drew

[Antonius]

I haven't heard anything about them. It may very well be a cult. On the other hand, you can't believe everything you read on the Internet. Lots of people call us a cult. In the end, I always prefer to make decisions based on direct experience.

[Andy]

I found a leaflet on Dahn Yoga (qi gong) and Dahn Mudo (martial art) when I was out in Korea recently.

To be honest I was impressed - the forms looked traditional and the understanding of internal force seemed real. They even used the phrase "internal force" and differentiated it from external muscular force.

Their grandmaster seems to be trying to popularise genuine internal arts for a westernised audience.

I would have liked to have checked it out in person, talked to students, instructors, etc, but I didnt have the opportunity.

I had a look on the web for info and some of the "cult" stuff would be accusations levelled at any genuine qi gong school -> illness described as energy blockage seems to annoy a lot of people. On the other hand there were some testimonials that suggested pressurised membership and fees.

As Sifu Anthony advises, direct experience is the way to go.

If Shaolin Wahnam becomes highly media/culturally visible around the world there will be a million rent-a-skeptics labelling us a "cult" and pointing to video's of chi flow, high fees, unconventional beliefs in the curability of incurable diseases and the powers of the human mind, etc -> all things that will be irrefutable proof of cult-ism to many.

yours enjoying the journey of self discovery,

Andy Cusick

[Andy]

Actually....

Ive just remembered...my girlfriend went along to a Dahn Yoga class in Korea to try out some qi gong for herself (as I keep going on about it).

She found it very "Korean", which is shorthand for "critical". A list of postural/structural issues which she would have to work on was pointed out to her shortly after she had entered the building. She found the one lesson off-putting.

Taking her experience with your comment about the possibly under qualified and over-eager instructor it is possible that it is a "McQiGong" school...

still, I would have to check it out for myself...

Andy

[joko]

Dear Family,

We are indeed very lucky to have the chance to learn and practice our Shaolin Wahnam Arts.

Regarding the topic discussed in this thread (and similar topic elsewhere), it is good to read Sifu's Q&A Jan 08 part 1. For the sake of those who cannot access Sifu's webpages, Questions & Answers 7-8 are quoted below.

Question 7
I practice a Tibetan chi kung set in the evening along with the Shaolin kung fu training I do in the morning. Lee Wei Joo and I discussed this and although I follow the rules of both schools respectfully and do not mix and match on my own we still felt it was a good idea to ask you if you felt this system was compatible with our school. My goal is to be a high level warrior healer and if you honestly feel that I will reach a higher level by practicing Shaolin exclusively than I will do so.

I also attended an "Art of Living” course that taught me a set of breathing exercises called pranayama that I planned to do in the morning before my Shaolin practice.
Ray, USA


Answer 7
Provided that you practice them correctly, it is alright to combine the Tibetian chi kung set and the pranayama breathing you have learnt elsewhere with with our Shaolin training. But the issue is not whether these arts are compatible. The issue is whether you will get the best benefits, especially with reference to the sacifice made and the aim realized.

Instead of giving a direct answer, it is more fun to give you an analogy and let you decide for yourself.

Suppose you aim to become a lawyer, and you are already enrolled in the Harvard Law School. You attended a seminar on Native Indian Laws, and another on Medieval English Laws. Would you spend time studying all the three law systems? You may, if you like, but it is not a very wise thing to do.

You have to make a choice. If your aim were to become an expert in Native Indian Laws or Medieval English Laws, you would then focus on your choice, and read some Laws from the Harvard Law School during your leisure for fun.

But your aim is to become a lawyer in the United States, and you are already enrolled in one of the finest institutions in the world. You may read some Native Indian Laws and Medieval English Laws for fun, but it is unwise to devote equal time on all the three.

Even if you can excel in all the three, your accomplishment as a lawyer will be affected. In other words, even if you can still become a good lawyer despite spending a lot of time on Native Indian Laws and Medieval English Laws, you would be a better lawyer by focusing on your aim instead of diverting twice the time on something else.

It is also worthy of note that your dedicated study at the Harvard Law School will be more than sufficient to make you into a good lawyer. You don't need to supplement your study with other courses. Should Native Indian Laws, Medieval English Laws or any other studies are needed, they will be provided for in your course in Harvard.

Question 8
Is it alright to practice the Tibetan chi kung set and the pranayama breathing exercises?


Answer 8
If you decide to practice the Tibetan chi kung set or the pranayama breathing exercises, an important issue is whether you are able to practice them correctly. You may have learnt them correctly, but whether you can continue to practice them correctly on your own is another question.

The Tibetian chi kung set you have described is based entirely on visualization. If you practice incorrectly, and it is easy to do so often without you knowing, it can bring serious adverse effects. Although you did not describe the pranayama breathing exercises, I know that they involve sophisticated breathing methods. It is also easy to practice them wrongly and have adverse effects.

Practicing the Shaolin arts that you have learnt from Shaolin Wahnam is different. You may also make mistakes in your practice, but there aresafety precaution already in-built in our exercises that automatically overcome any side-effects you may have developed in your wrong practice. The most important of this safety precaution is our chi flow.

If you have developed some adverse effects as a result of practicing our exercises incorrectly, the chi flow which is an intergral part of the exercise will clear the adverse effects without you having to perform any special remedial exercises. This is a fantastic advantage not found in most other schools.

You should note that the incorrect practice mentioned here is due to mistakes made because of forgetfulness or carelessness. If a student purposely goes against the instruction, then it is a different matter. He is obviously asking for trouble for himself. One very important instruction in our school is not to worry and not to intellectualize during practice.

Another question you should ask yourself is what benefits you can get from practicing the Tibetan chi kung set or the pranayama breathing exercises that you cannot get from our Shaolin arts. If there are extra benefits which you would like to have, then go ahead and practice them, but bear in mind that these extra benefits will be obtained at the expense of the time you have to take away from your Shaolin training or from other aspects of your life.

If you do not have any extra benefits, you should then ask whether it is more cost-effective to get these same benefits by practicing the Tibetan chi kung set or the pranayama exercises. You should ascertain that the benefits are the same, and not just some of the benefits are the same. For example, by practicing pranayama breathing you can he healthy, but by practicing Shaolin Kungfu you can be both healthy and combat efficient. The benefits are not exactly the same.

If it is more cost-effective to obtain the same benefits by practicing the Tibetan chi kung set, pranayama exercises or any other arts than by practicing our Shaolin arts, then it is only logical that you practice them instead of our Shaolin arts.

The Buddha said that his teaching was like a raft to ferry you from the shore of suffering to the shore of bliss. If you could find a better raft, by all means use it. Of course we are nowhere near the Buddha, but we aspire to his philosophy. We use our methods because we find them the best available to help us achieve our goals. If we find some better methods, we would use the better methods.

Joko

[Andrew R]

You're right Andy, some of the stuff for why they were labeled a "cult" was very similar to why Shaolin Wahnam has been labeled as such. It was the stories of people being very pressured into paying high fees and committing for a long-term type thing that got to me.

Some of the ideas I read such as stance training, breathing to the abdomen and other things were similar, and that's what peaked my interest.

The point Joko has brought up is also important: we have everything we need within our school's practice. I suppose I just wanted to get a feel for what other systems are like, since Shaolin Wahnam is really the only thing I've experienced. Anyway, thanks for your input.

Drew

[Anthony S]

Hello Sean,

Your first comment on this thread that the person said she could help you out. What is it that you need help with that you think you need or want to try out? What is your objective?

Your answer to this can give us all some perspective to give you a response.

[Andrew R]

Hi Anthony (S),

I guess by Sean you mean me (Drew). You can call me Sean if you'd like though.

I hadn't gone to the place for any specific reason. I was just walking around and saw it, and I always like to meet people who are interested in the internal arts, and see what kind of stuff they're in to. I told her a brief story of how I've practiced chi kung for a few years and it's been really great, but that the speed of my muscular recovery has been fairly slow (I still have what would be considered very weak muscles).

She said she'd be happy to do some acupressure and a little checkup on my internal organs, which I felt might help me out a bit, so I agreed to try it. The other reason was I wanted to see what other school systems are like, since I've never explored other stuff outside of Shaolin Wahnam.

So, my overall objective is be healthy and finally be able to say that I no longer have a muscle disease.

I wanted to try something new out just for the experience, not because I want to stop my current practice or anything. I don't think I could ever do that.

Does that help?

Drew

[Anthony S]

Hello Drew,

Oops on using the wrong name. My apologies.

Well, since you're experienced in Internal Arts you, more than others, will realize how powerful they can be. Thus, I think you should be very careful and slow to just jump into something just because you were walking by. Your participation in this Forum, experience and hopefully the knowledge you've gained should allow you to evaluate the recommendations of an Internal Arts practioner. Use this to let you be careful in just allowing someone you bumped into to perform Internal therapy on you. This isn't just directed at the person referred to in your situation. Don't interpret this as me saying you shouldn't see this person. I don't have enough information to have an opinion.

My other comment is that our art is not incomplete and should allow you full recovery. This isn't meant to slight what other arts/approaches can accomplish. But we have to be honest with ourselves that we believe our art should allow us to make full recoveries. This doesn't mean that certain factors may limit the recovery at times. Please consult your Sifu or local instructor to evaluate why you haven't recovered after several years practice. The fact that you say things have been great tells me that you must have made some great improvement.

I'm glad you started this thread. Thanks.

[Andrew R]

Hi again Anthony,

You're right, I was too hasty to jump into letting a stranger mess with my internal workings. I didn't go through with it, which is for the best. I guess I let my judgment be passed over by the want to be healthy. I'll make sure to take advantage of the coming week with Sigung and Sifu Rama to work towards great health.

Thank you Anthony for helping me realize I wasn't acting with the best judgment, I'll be more hesitant from now on.

It's true that things have been great. I've made huge progress in many areas, but this one problem seems like it just doesn't want to go away. But, I know that with time all will work out. Sometimes I just wish that time was now.

Thanks again,
Drew

[Anthony S]

This thread inspires me to relate an observation I've made over the years (not directed at you Drew)--

Humans are certainly creatures of habit. One habit a person can develop is searching for a fantastic art or master. This is noble and worthy isn't it? A person may find what they are looking for. In some cases that could be the incredible Shaolin Wahnam Arts. They immediately recognize this and take pleasure in the discovery and enjoy the fruits of it. However, because of the habit they developed over the years they continue searching without realizing it. They haven't come close to recognizing the depths of treasure they have already found. Before they know it the continual searching distracts them from giving due focus to the treasure they've already found. Thus, among other things, they miss out much of the depth of treasure they could benefit from.

What is due focus in this case? I'll leave that up to the individual to determine for themselves.

One instance happened a couple of years ago when many Shaolin Wahnam practitioners started started running to learn from another famous internal arts "Master". Their objectives were noble in some ways. However, many suffered from the experience. No use to get into all the details here but they regretted it, in part because the "Master" either was intentionally deceptive or simply lacked a pure and clear mind/heart. This is an extreme example of how this can lead to an unintended result. Other instances don't have to involve a Master or Art that is inferior. It can be a high level art and Master but the seeker gets unduly distracted without realizing it.

No one should misinterpret these comments as saying one shouldn't ever seek other Masters or high level arts but they should keep this in perspective when they make their judgements.

[Marcus]

I used to be a seeker, always looking for (drum roll please): The thing that would light up my life and make everything clear to me.

I was proud to be a seeker.

One day my beautiful wife asked me: "wouldn't it be nicer to be a finder? Because you don't seem very happy as a seeker"

I realised (like Anthony mentioned above) that I was so used to seeking that I wouldn't stop, even if I had found what I was seeking. I realised I would never know that I'd found it, because I wouldn't give it the time it needed for the seed to bear fruit.

So I stopped being a seeker and found Shaolin Wahnam. Now I get on with my practice.

Kind regards
Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Jose Antonio]

Dear Marcus and Anthony,
Your advice has a lot of wisdom. There is a time to search and a time to find!
Andrew enjoy your search until you are ready to find!
All the best
Jose Antonio

[Apubenj]

Do Not Join This Group!!!

Ilchi Lee's Dahn Yoga is a dangerous cult. They target middle aged people with money to fleece and young idealistic students to become part of the staff, "a master in training." They are at greatest risk of the cult, which brainwashes them through lack of sleep, exercise, psychological pressure to become the salesmen that are so often mentioned.
The sad thing is the practice, a rudimentary form of an authentic ancient Korean practice for development and balancing of Chi for health, is very useful, even in this attenuated form. But the benefits are used by this awful group to legitimize itself and to hook the member into wanting more. Of course more means more expensive courses, more $400 healing sessions, more commitment to that Lee bastard.
Do I sound bitter? Yes, I am. I was a member for 5 years, thinking that my plateau in development was my lack of discipline and character. I did most of their major courses, I became an instructor of the basic excercise class. But I never could throw my lot with Lee or the organization. I finally left when new allegations of sexual abuse, money laundering and mental damage to staff members started up again this year.
No, this group will not help you. If it helps you at all, it is for their financial agenda, not world peace.
Stay away!!!
Apu

[Wu Jing]

Students

I have had students who were training under me go looking for other energy arts to only come back disappointed.

I had two students visit a Korean temple where they practiced some form of chi kung. They talked to the monks there in the hope of learning something and after a long talk they realized that they were more advanced practitioners than the monks. When they told the monks about their training they were amazed and the monks said," Only our very high level masters practice something like this and they dont teach it to anyone". My students came home disappointed.

Once you have found a good master stay with it master what he teaches you and make friends along the way.