What is evil?

[Ronny]

Hi all together

One of the main points Buddha is teaching us is: Avoid all evil!

I know every child know very well what evil is but for me there are some troubleling points when someone do things which are on the "boarder-line" between good and evil.

I make an example: When friends are together and having a funny time, one of them make a dirty joke which discriminates other peoples, races, religions or whatever. (There ar no other people around them). The joke was not meant seriously (there was not a single thougt of discrimination) and everybody is laughing loudly because of the joke. Do you think this discriminating joke produces bad karma, i. e. is evil? And what is when the one who made the joke didn't mean it seriously but some of his friends take the joke seriously (i. e. he believes in what the joke says), has the one who made the joke then produced bad karma for hisself?

[Damian Kissey]

Life is fair

just opinion :

Law of Karma says Life is fair :
As one sow , so shall one reap .

Evil is any action ( deeds,words,thoughts) which creates bad karma that takes one's being further away from the Absolute Truth or Buddhahood or God .Virtuous action creates good karma and brings closer to Perfection.

Bad karma gives us hell . Good karma gives us heaven .
Godhood or Zen is beyond bad or good karma and is Perfection.

Evil is one's own doing , don't blame others.
A Buddha is karmaless because there is no one or the other ( no ego).

[joko]

In the Mahabharata epic, Yudistira, the wise king, asked Bhisma, the respected one, this question: "What is the meaning of dharma?" To answer this, Bhisma first defines 'adharma', then defines dharma, and then, how to differentiate between dharma and adharma. (please take a look at look at this post)

"Adharma is everything that creates disharmony, disunity, and conflict.
Disharmony, disunity, and conflict; that is adharma.
Everything that can terminate them; that is dharma."
(Terminate what? Terminate disharmony, disunity, and conflict)

And how to differentiate between dharma and adharma?
It is based on our own consciousness or awareness. That is why we have to cultivate our mind.

Dharma strengthens, develops unity and harmony.

We can take the above to define evil: Evil is anything which creates conflict, disharmony and disunity.

Ronny, in the example in your post, if the joke could create conflict, disharmony, or disunity, among those friends who were previously in harmony, then the joke is evil. (Even if there was not a single thought of discrimination by the one who made the joke). However, if the joke could make the friends enjoy more of the gathering, then the joke is not evil.

Joko

[Jonny Say]

Hi Ronny

At the last wedding review course this question came up, and if I remember correctly Sigung's answer was that he said there will be some negative Karma from such jokes, but the severity will depend on the intention. This does not mean that we don't fool around, but when you think of Sigung's sense of humour (which is hysterical as anyone having attended a course will know) it is always very simple and open hearted, never negative and cutting. Its hard for us in the West as we are used to the style of humour when we always take the mick out of someone else.

All the best

[Daniel]

Hello all,

If the intent behind a joke or any other action is to cause harm to any other being, then, no doubt, this will cause bad karma. And for that, there´s no confusion, misunderstanding or anything else that can mask it, you know it very well!. Unless you´re mad!
On the other hand, sometimes people can get hurt by you even if you didn´t mean to hurt them, then it´s appropiate to apologize and amend it.

That´s my opinion,

Daniel

[Andrea]

Dear all

This isn't an easy topic. I do not have the background to answer it from a Buddhist perspective and will not attempt to do so. But if you allow me I would like to contribute some personal thoughts ... or at least try to do so

In Shaolin Wahnam we learn that the mind is powerful. Just like a blessing can create much good, even if the receiver is not aware of it, words or thoughts have an effect, no matter if someone is present to witness them. As for the effect I believe that the same thought or sentence might work as a blessing or a curse, depending on how our heart and consciousness perceive them and thus how our intention uses them. From your wording of "dirty" and "discriminating" I would believe that there is an awareness of something negative with those jokes ... and thus a perception that they include an evil aspect. Please correct me if I am assuming this wrongly. A different formulation would have been “jokes that point out specific characteristics of certain groups or people" ...

If there is awareness the effects might work at different levels...

At an attitude and relationship level:
Some may argue that if the "victim" does not know it will not hurt him... The effect might be indirect: by modifying the attitude and affecting the relationship ... A way to measure this might be to listen to our heart and honestly ask ourselves: What does this joke do to me? Would I tell this joke if the person sat at the table? How does it affect my image of that person or group? How will it affect my next encounter with that person or group? How would a blessing or compassionate thought make a difference? In most events the joke has probably not created the distorted image - what made the joke "funny" was the existing prejudice - but it might reinforce that image and thus reinforce negative and destructive attitudes...

At a broader level:
I remember a Q&A where Sigung explained that thoughts are vibrations ... as there is a profound link between everything that exists, those vibrations a bit like the "butterfly flapping its wings and causing a storm" are likely to have an effect. Difficult to say which effect .. difficult to say what exactly it might change to tell or not tell this joke... While at the personal level the effect might be visibly negative, affecting one's attitude and relationship - at the broader level it could have a completely different effect - a positive one by changing the live of a person or a negative one by leading to the genocide of a people...

What does this mean?

If I remember right the "precept" "to avoid all evil" continues with "to do good". I find it interesting (this might be the translation only) that it says "avoid" evil - while it says "do" good. Those of you who like me drive a motorbike know that the best way to hit a tree is to stare at it.
“Avoiding” means "see that it is there" and then focus on where you want to go really.... see the evil then focus on the good to avoid it.... Relating this to the joke above, it could be interpreted as "listen to your heart and consciousness, see if you perceive it as evil" and if you do so - look at where the good is you want to arrive at (the fun for example and happy social eve) and then correct the path (the means) to arrive there ...
And what if the joke was already told ... then it is already at the broader level …. do not look back .. first of all because looking backwards when driving a motorbike is a bad idea and second because it is done and in the broader context you do not know and control what effects it will have.... but there are likely to be more obstacles ahead which will benefit from your attention and give you another chance to “Avoid all evil” and “to do good”….

Andrea

PS: Oops this got quite lenghty not yet the Shaolin level of mental clarity and efficiency …. guess I better get back to practice ...

[Antonius]

I think that Sifu has already defined evil quite beautifully and succinctly: Evil is whatever brings harm to you and to others. Of course, that's not always easy to see.

I think that the more mental clarity you have, the more deeply you can see into situations to identify the potential for evil. For example, Ronny's example might seem harmless to some, but a person with a lot of mental clarity might see it differently. In short, mental clarity better enables us to see (thanks for the analogy Andrea) the future repercussions of the butterfly's wings.

I think it may be helpful to list the Eightfold Noble Path from Sifu's book "The Complete Book of Zen":

1. Right Understanding...because perverse views will lead the follower astray.
2. Right Thought...because thought initiates the karmic process.
3. Right Speech...abstain from telling lies, backbiting, slandering, using abusive language, and indulging in foolish gossip.
4. Right Action...promotes moral conduct, forbids killing, stealing, adultery, covetousness, and anger.
5. Right Livelihood...discourages engaging in occupations that bring harm to other beings.
6. Right Effort...not doing evil, doing good, and persevering in spiritual cultivation.
7. Right Mindfulness...stilling the mind in tranquility meditation.
8. Right Concentration...concentrating the mind in insight meditation to acquire panna, or wisdom, for attaining enlightenment.

[TheGreenKnight]

Hey all,

Great discussion. What a simple, and yet complex matter. One statement can sum it up, yet all the volumes in the world cannot exhaust the mystery of the topic of good and evil.

I'll preface my statements with ' this is my opinion'.

I have liked many points that have already been made, but to keep this post concise, I'll try and only mention a few.

I definitely agree that goodness is perfection/wholeness. To be good resonates with our being such that it brings us closer to perfection and wholeness. Evil is thus anything that fractures this perfection and wholeness, and brings chaos.

In my opinion, what gives us this perfection? A properly ordered heirarchy of love - loving the Divine, and loving our fellow men. The first is the foundation of the second, yet both are necessary for wholeness. One cannot be whole and love the Divine and also be malicious to men, nor can one be whole and spiteful of the Divine and love men.

--
I also want to suggest an possible ordering to the eightfold noble path. As it seems to me, some are prior to others, yet all seem important.

Right thought and right effort seem paramount. Without right thought, things are wrong right off the start. Without right effort, right thought will be fruitless.
(by the way, I am taking right thought to be something like right intention, which may or may not be what was meant in the text. I give this interpretation to right thought because right understanding is a different point)

Right speech, and action seem to follow from right thought and effort. Right livelihood seems to follow from right speech and right action.

Right understanding, right mindfulness, and right concentration seem to be the soil that fosters the growth of right thought.

Without understanding our thoughts will be off the mark, many times without us being aware. This inevitably begs the question of how do we gain right understanding. But, to keep this post short, I'll pass on giving my opinion on that. Without mindfulness and concentration, 1) thoughts will less clear 2) we will have less insight into the consequences of our thoughts and actions. Or to say the same thing but in the positive sense, with a clear mind, 1) it is much easier to focus on thoughts (for good or for bad) and 2) it will be easier to see the effects of our thoughts and actions, thus allowing us to better practically carry out whatever intentions we have in mind (once again, for better or for worse).

Any thoughts?

[Grimlock]

This is really interesting stuff. I'm eagerly looking forward to the continued discussion of the eightfold path. I apologize in advance for the slight step back -this is really a continuation of Andrea's excellent post, and a more verbose version of my Sifu's comment about mental clarity.

In a practical sense, evil is whatever our internal moral compass (or heart) says it is. When we cultivate the mind, we refine our sense of what is evil to better align with the Cosmos, which may or may not have an absolute sense of what is evil. So I am referring to the basic rules of:

1. Avoid Evil
2. Do Good
3. Cultivate the Mind

As a simplified example, the prisons are filled with people guilty of crimes who often honestly feel they are innocent due to one reason or another. To me, this is often a result of having a perverted moral compass because some of these inmates feel that they really do avoid evil and do good. If they truly cultivated their minds, I think they would have an improved sense of what is evil and what is good because doing so would bring their moral compasses in closer alignment with the Cosmos. Many have done just that -they embraced a religion while in prison, cultivated their minds, and reformed their ways. This must be very difficult to do, and I greatly admire those who have done it.

I view the eightfold path as a more detailed level of cultivating the mind, and more useful to discuss here. So there, I'm finally caught up to the rest of the discussion.

[Grimlock]

Anyone ever get the feeling that they have a talent for killing threads?

In an effort to get this thread rolling again, I'd like to pose a question that will hopefully get us into a deeper discussion of the 8-fold path.

My Sifu said:

I think that the more mental clarity you have, the more deeply you can see into situations to identify the potential for evil.

As a hypothetical, suppose someone has such great mental clarity in this respect that when she examines different courses of action, she sees potential evil in each one, just in varying degrees. She feels that no matter what she does, she will be unable to avoid evil. What to do?

[TheGreenKnight]

Thanks for getting this discussion going again.


I may have a very simple example, as examples are much easier to discuss than a general scenario.

War seems to fit the requirement of the hypothetical situation, at least for the country being attacked. I would have used self-defense, but war makes the issue more clear.

Let's assume that there two countries have similar weapons, and the country attacking is intent on attacking.

There are a couple of possibilities that come immediately to mind for the country being attacked.
1) talk to the enemy, but that is really too late as the tanks are rolling by the first towns.
2) let the enemies in without conflict.
3) fight the enemy, which inevitably ends up killing some of them.

Case 1 and 2 will result in loss of land, loss of self-governing, possible/probable abuse of people at the hands of the enemy, etc.
Case 3 results in the loss of life.

Either way, case 1, 2, or 3 is not devoid of loss of some sort.

Most of us would choose option 3 without thinking about it much.

Here is an interesting point. Is option 3 still considered evil overall? There is definitely loss of life, yet it seems to be the right thing to do. If it is considered 'evil' overall, we are stuck because we are to avoid evil. Actually, it is more strict than simply 'trying to avoid' evil. If we do evil, we gain the appropriate karma. So, what gives?

Hopefully this will get some discussion going.

[Bernardo]

What is evil?

Anyone ever get the feeling that they have a talent for killing threads?

LOL

Is 'killing threads' evil too? (I think this question belongs to the "Preguntas sin respuesta" thread ).

[Ronny]

Till now I just have red what you said and hold back in saying anything further in this thread, thus I have avoided to produce ANY karma for me and you

Thanks for everything you have posted - it led me to think deeply.

My thoughts: For almost ANY ordinary person (including many monks) it is impossible to avoid ALL evil. This is just because we are human beings, thus we are at best "middle class" beings and we live in a world of samsara of defilements and furthermore we live in an aeon of suffering. Thus if we take in consideration these three BIG hindrances (i. e. human being, samsara an aeon of suffering) it is just impossible for almost ANY ordinary person (including many monks) to avoid ALL evil! Of course the amount of bad karma we produces depends on our spiritual level. Therefore a monk my produces only very slight bad karma (maybe when he have a short moment of unconcentration during meditation and at this very short moment he my have a single thought like "I like to stop my meditation session now!" - thus he may produce a moment of unhappiness and therefore produces some very slight bad karma), on the other hand a professional killer may produces bad karma constantly and only little good one. Therefore it is no surprise that only very few attain pefect enlightenment in any generation (if actually). Even Buddha hisself said that it is very difficult to attain perfect enlightenment in our saha world of samsara with its defilements!

Does this mean that ALL English people are bad because of their English black humour? (Ups, do I have produced any bad karma now or does the little smily have saved me?

[TaiChiPete]

resurrection

I've been giving this a lot of thought recently - and having finally arrived at something worth posting, I note my seniors have said it already! I think I will say it again because I think it's really important and thinking about it has helped me.

Dr. Damian Kissey said:

Evil is any action ( deeds, words, thoughts) which creates bad karma that takes one's being further away from the Absolute Truth or Buddhahood or God .Virtuous action creates good karma and brings closer to Perfection.

An even more important question is how one recognises evil and then avoids it.

Siheng Anthony reminds us that the Buddha has left us the way in the form of the Eight Noble Path.

I'm currently reading "an Open Heart" by the Dalai Lama. In this the Dalai Lama recommends contemplation on various situations where you might routinely take an action that is not virtuous (in accordance with The Eight Noble Path) - and then meditate on how you could respond differently. ( I think this is similar to how Si Je Emiko describes Hesitations http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthr...?t=6202&page=6. ) As motivation it is worth thinking about the bad Karma that the “wrong” action, speech or thought will incur. My understanding is that will be related to the type and severity of the action. Through this process we will gradually get better at recognising and avoiding evil and doing good! Would anyone agree with me when I say this process is (part of) Cultivating the Mind.

I find it nice how the three link - in order to avoid evil, one must do good and cultivate the mind.

Pete

[Ade]

[QUOTE=TaiChiPete;59251]
I find it nice how the three link - in order to avoid evil, one must do good and cultivate the mind.


I think this is very important in our day to day lives.

We must actually do good, not just think about it in front of the television or computer screen, actually get up and practice doing good.

Set yourself a daily goal to help someone during the day. It doesn’t have to be a big task, it could be just a nice smile to someone on the tube or bus but a conscious effort should be made.

Ade