Dukka

[Buddhasfist1]

Well it was a short but sweet statement of what the Buddha teaches. If you were to ask a Zen master "What does the Buddha Teach", he may tell you "The Buddha teaches about the self and how to forget the self". The point of that is everything is mind created.. Dhukka (Suffering) included.

Many people see Buddhism a Pessimistic, Ex. "oh, all that suffering, that's all you Buddhist's talk about", Well in a way yes, and in a way no.. So I think that the sentence though concise, is only a one sided view, perhaps more Theravada (Hinyana) than Mahayana. But it's all up to the individual on how they want to see or perceive this answer.

If I were told to sum it all up in one sentence.. I would word it differently, but I am not sure how yet.

A good thinking post here.

[julie]

Hi Julie, you are presenting the Theravada path of Buddhism as opposed to the Mahayana path that Zen is part of, and which Sifu teaches.

Hi RDBoucher. The Buddha only taught one path, i.e. the path to liberation from suffering.

A useful guide to the Mahayana is the Lotus Sutra which describes Nirvana as a temporary resting place on the path to realisation of complete enlightenment or Buddhahood. The fundamental vow for a Mahayana practitioner can be viewed as the commitment to delay entry into Nirvana until all other sentient beings have been liberated from suffering. In effect there being no Nirvana for a Bodhisattva.

Nibbana is not a "resting place" on the path to Buddhahood.

Let me share with you the following quote:

'Come Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher." ~Kalama Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel008.html

Do not accept teaching on blind faith, but investigate it and know it yourself that the teaching can bring benefits.

[RDBoucher]

Hi Julie, it would probably be best if I referred you to Sifu's "The Complete Book Of Zen: A guide to the principles and practice" which is an excellent book and will place his teachings within the context of the Buddhist path for you.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Book-Zen-principles-practice/dp/0091876559/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_3

[Buddhasfist1]

A qoute from the Diamond Sutra.

Chapter 7:

Then Buddha asked Subhuti, "What do you think, Subhuti, has the Buddha arrived at the highest, most fulfilled, most awakened and enlightened mind? Does the Buddha teach any teaching?"

Subhuti replied, "As far as I have understood the lord Buddha's teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened or enlightened mind. Nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Buddha teaches. Why? Because the teachings that the Buddha has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent things and therefore cannot be described. The truth in them is uncontainable and inexpressible. It neither is, nor is it not. What does this mean? What this means is that Buddhas and disciples are not enlightened by a set method of teachings, but by an internally intuitive process which is spontaneous and is part of their own inner nature."

Buddha did not speak Dharma every day, He also taught by his actions. Words cannot fully express a truth.. And attachment to Words, Labeling, Tagging, or any other Distinquishments only serve to seperate your True Nature from other things.

Also the Buddha tells in the Diamond Sutra: Chapter 3

"All living beings, whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they are aware or unaware, whether they are not aware or not unaware, all living beings will eventually be led by me to the final Nirvana, the final ending of the cycle of birth and death. And when this unfathomable, infinite number of living beings have all been liberated, in truth not even a single being has actually been liberated."

"Why Subhuti? Because if a disciple still clings to the arbitrary illusions of form or phenomena such as an ego, a personality, a self, a separate person, or a universal self existing eternally, then that person is not an authentic disciple."

If all are Enlightened they return to their original nature, So theres no liberation, your already liberated. So in essence there is nothing to attain, there is nothing to gain. You already have what you are searching for, you just don't know it yet.


Thus to try to explain in words what the Buddha's teaching is; is not a full expression of truth.

[julie]

Hi Julie, it would probably be best if I referred you to Sifu's "The Complete Book Of Zen: A guide to the principles and practice" which is an excellent book and will place his teachings within the context of the Buddhist path for you.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Boo...tt_at_ep_dpi_3

Hi, RDBoucher. I have "The Complete Book of Zen" and other Sifu Wong's book. In my opinion, the book pays "wrong attention"...meaning paying attention to things that are unfit for attention, e.g. "cosmic reality", "Nirvana is the Absolute", "Self Nature/spiritual body", etc..

The Buddha said,

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true and established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

~Sabbasava Sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

[julie]

Chapter 7:
Buddha did not speak Dharma every day, He also taught by his actions. Words cannot fully express a truth.. And attachment to Words, Labeling, Tagging, or any other Distinquishments only serve to seperate your True Nature from other things.

Attachment to view, e.g. your True Nature, is a great attachment.

If all are Enlightened they return to their original nature, So theres no liberation, your already liberated. So in essence there is nothing to attain, there is nothing to gain. You already have what you are searching for, you just don't know it yet.

Thus to try to explain in words what the Buddha's teaching is; is not a full expression of truth.

This is also attachment to view. "Original Nature" is an idea/speculation which is not proper, not seeing things as they really are and unfit for attention.

[RDBoucher]

Hi Julie,

Your opinion reflects where you are right now and is therefore appropriate. However, it sounds as if Zen is not for you and it would be wise to seek a Teacher in the Theraveda tradition.

Trying to argue that the Mahayana teaching that "all beings have the Buddha-nature" is mistaken is, at best, demonstrating a shallow level of understanding and a limited amount of practice. However, you have not yet taken the hint.

Personally I am currently studying Tibetan Buddhism which contains all three vehicles, starting with the Hinanyana, and then progressing to the Mahayana and then onto Vajrayana, ending with their formless meditation teachings of Mahamudra and Dzogchen, which can be equated to Zen. Each stage builds upon the previous and the Hinayana is an important foundation and continuing discipline throughout.

Nevertheless the goal of Vajrayana is full enlightenment or Buddhahood and one of the benefits of Deity/Guru yoga is the ability to overcome a negative self-image and our habit of self-cherishing through the visualisation of oneself as a fully-enlightened Buddha. I would suggest that anyone who has met a Rinpoche would not doubt the effectiveness of Vajrayana Buddhism and the teaching of Buddha-nature.

I wish you well in your practice but I fear this discussion is just going in a circle. You could spend the next million years arguing that Theraveda is the correct path and Zen is mistaken but you will never succeed and in the process will have cut yourself off from your own future development.

Many paths lead from
The foot of the mountain
But at the peak
We all gaze at the
Single bright moon.
- Ikkyu

[Buddhasfist1]

Attachment to view, e.g. your True Nature, is a great attachment.



This is also attachment to view. "Original Nature" is an idea/speculation which is not proper, not seeing things as they really are and unfit for attention.

You Assume I speak these words out of Attachment to any view points or Idea's.. This is wrong, it is also a wrong deduction.

Your True Nature is Mind before thoughts, Which also has many other names attached to it IE. Buddha Nature, Soul, God, Higher Self etc.. This is not an idea or Speculation, it is what the Buddha taught Subhuti when he saw Buddha's actions on a day to day, moment to moment basis and wanted to know how to live and act the way the Buddha did.

Seeing things as they really are is also a half truth to explaining the experience of mindfulness, It is bad wording to Just Seeing, Just Tasting, Just Hearing, Just Sitting Etc..

I will have to agree with RDBoucher here, we could continue to argue this bit for a millenium.. And still not get us anywhere.. I don't have any problems with any one who wants to believe in or have faith in what ever they think is right for them.. There are many Sutta's that I do respect, but the Mahayana Zen tradition is what I follow, and will continue to do so, it is also the way of this Martial Art.. Yes it would be Wise to seek out a Theravadan Teacher, as it is your method of practice. And I wish you well in that.