Hey all,
I would like to make a new topic about the concept external vs internal / wudang vs shaolin. Just my understandings and experiences on this topic.
And to clear up the misunderstandings surrounding the concept.
Please feel free to add whatever input you would like.
To add-on to my rambling on post #16 from this topic https://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/sh...nsistent/page2
Sun Lu Tang is the one who made the first distinction between external and internal (as far as I know), in his books, and the first one to write books on the subject
(or books on Chinese martial arts in general for that matter).
The reason Sun Lu Tang classified them, as far as I know from my research, is because Sun Lu Tang saw underlying similarities, in the three styles he was trained in;
xingyiquan, baguazhang and taijiquan. Then people took this out of context and later made a full distinction between shaolin vs wudang/ external vs internal.
I got the spark from reading the fragments on the amazon website in this book (giving props where due) :
This is most probably common knowledge, but regardless.
I've been able to train the three styles in the same matter, (with the same underlying principles). Hence it sparks my interest, and I'd like to talk about it.
I find it really fascinating, and this is what a forum is for, right?
I have also been caught up in the same nonsense, the differentiation between the internal vs external 'styles', wich is also a reason I'd like to get deeper into this.
I have experience with Chuo Jiao, (a style connected to Yue Fei, who is also credited for xingyiquan; so the two styles obviously have a connection);
and honestly, the training of ChuoJiao, in my opinion, in the past was also in a circle type of walking, (at least a part of it), but then with the emphasis on the feet/ kicks.
Baguazhang, obviously, has a very strong connection with the feet, yet they put the emphasis on the hands. Yet they share/ train the same whole body connection.
For me bagua, has strong roots in Chuojiao, and Tantui; same 'mechanics'. Xingyiquan, just the same. One example is in one of the animal versions of xingyiquan (think jumping ).
The reason I say all this, is because chuojiao and tantui are regarded as external styles.
Most probably, Dong Haichuan, was influenced and trained by daoists who used a meditative state of circle walking as cultivation for their daoist cultivation.
Hence, the emphasis on circle walking and daoist principles.
For me, having trained bagua under Sifu, and things more or less went there own 'way'; the 'mechanics' of bagua are extremely similar to the 'mechanics' of chuojiao.
Ofcourse, all of this is just semantics, transmission is the key, but the details are pretty interesting indeed.
Chuo Jiao and Bagua, or Tantui, they are most definitly connected, the inner mechanics, and most definitly share a connection. Heck I could even prove it if you'd like.
So it's very very interesting, when dividing styles into internal or external, or shaolin vs wudang, and looking how it all went into shape by misunderstanding.
We can even go deeper and make a whole list, and be able to trace down connection to a whole lot of styles in it's full.
So, I'd be really interested in how other's see this. Some of my brothers and sisters have been trained in the three harmony style of taijiquan from Sifu, it would be great to hear your input.
An interesting thing I would like to add about Sun Lu Tang; he wrote a book (or a text?) about xingyiquan and the five elements overcoming each other.
He is known to have admitted in his later years that he did this on purpose, to mislead people, because he didn't want the arts to fall in the wrong hands.
Or so I have read. I can't find the source, but I'm sure I read it, and it does makes sense.
His teacher Guo Yunshen just needed one pattern to overcome everybody, regardless of any elements, haha.
It's pretty funny if you think about it, but still, he felt bad about it, as the art basically died out.
Im sorry if I offended anybody with my post, for whatever reason. Some is rambling, I know. It's just, I'm pretty fanatic about it, as I love these arts.
Who doesn't in the Kwoon, right
My humble regards,
Tim
I would like to make a new topic about the concept external vs internal / wudang vs shaolin. Just my understandings and experiences on this topic.
And to clear up the misunderstandings surrounding the concept.
Please feel free to add whatever input you would like.
To add-on to my rambling on post #16 from this topic https://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/sh...nsistent/page2
Sun Lu Tang is the one who made the first distinction between external and internal (as far as I know), in his books, and the first one to write books on the subject
(or books on Chinese martial arts in general for that matter).
The reason Sun Lu Tang classified them, as far as I know from my research, is because Sun Lu Tang saw underlying similarities, in the three styles he was trained in;
xingyiquan, baguazhang and taijiquan. Then people took this out of context and later made a full distinction between shaolin vs wudang/ external vs internal.
I got the spark from reading the fragments on the amazon website in this book (giving props where due) :
This is most probably common knowledge, but regardless.
I've been able to train the three styles in the same matter, (with the same underlying principles). Hence it sparks my interest, and I'd like to talk about it.
I find it really fascinating, and this is what a forum is for, right?
I have also been caught up in the same nonsense, the differentiation between the internal vs external 'styles', wich is also a reason I'd like to get deeper into this.
I have experience with Chuo Jiao, (a style connected to Yue Fei, who is also credited for xingyiquan; so the two styles obviously have a connection);
and honestly, the training of ChuoJiao, in my opinion, in the past was also in a circle type of walking, (at least a part of it), but then with the emphasis on the feet/ kicks.
Baguazhang, obviously, has a very strong connection with the feet, yet they put the emphasis on the hands. Yet they share/ train the same whole body connection.
For me bagua, has strong roots in Chuojiao, and Tantui; same 'mechanics'. Xingyiquan, just the same. One example is in one of the animal versions of xingyiquan (think jumping ).
The reason I say all this, is because chuojiao and tantui are regarded as external styles.
Most probably, Dong Haichuan, was influenced and trained by daoists who used a meditative state of circle walking as cultivation for their daoist cultivation.
Hence, the emphasis on circle walking and daoist principles.
For me, having trained bagua under Sifu, and things more or less went there own 'way'; the 'mechanics' of bagua are extremely similar to the 'mechanics' of chuojiao.
Ofcourse, all of this is just semantics, transmission is the key, but the details are pretty interesting indeed.
Chuo Jiao and Bagua, or Tantui, they are most definitly connected, the inner mechanics, and most definitly share a connection. Heck I could even prove it if you'd like.
So it's very very interesting, when dividing styles into internal or external, or shaolin vs wudang, and looking how it all went into shape by misunderstanding.
We can even go deeper and make a whole list, and be able to trace down connection to a whole lot of styles in it's full.
So, I'd be really interested in how other's see this. Some of my brothers and sisters have been trained in the three harmony style of taijiquan from Sifu, it would be great to hear your input.
An interesting thing I would like to add about Sun Lu Tang; he wrote a book (or a text?) about xingyiquan and the five elements overcoming each other.
He is known to have admitted in his later years that he did this on purpose, to mislead people, because he didn't want the arts to fall in the wrong hands.
Or so I have read. I can't find the source, but I'm sure I read it, and it does makes sense.
His teacher Guo Yunshen just needed one pattern to overcome everybody, regardless of any elements, haha.
It's pretty funny if you think about it, but still, he felt bad about it, as the art basically died out.
Im sorry if I offended anybody with my post, for whatever reason. Some is rambling, I know. It's just, I'm pretty fanatic about it, as I love these arts.
Who doesn't in the Kwoon, right
My humble regards,
Tim
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