Questions on tantui

[wonderlusterer]

Hi all,

I've been looking at Sifu Wong's articles and videos on tan tui.
The idea of simple movements practised up and down a straight line just seems very appealing for some reason
The 12 tantui seems almost like a a northern version of Shaolin Wahnam's 16 combat sequences.
According to Sifu Wong's articles, it has strikes, kicks, throws and grips, and can counter all four categories of attack as well.

I'd like to ask, could it be practised the same way? Can one sequence or "road" as it is called in tantui, be used to counter another sequence? I've noticed that Sifu Wong seems to have created an extra set of sequences to be used together with the original 12 as combat sequences. I'm sure that's not how combat tantui was originally practiced, otherwise there would be 24 sequences instead of 12?

Also, in his June 2004 Q&A (http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04a/jun04-2.html), Sifu Wong has mentioned various kicks in tantui, such as nail kick, snap kick, stamp kick, step kick, thrust kick, jumping kicks, sweeps and double kicks. However, as hard as I stare at the screen, in all of the videos I've found, there are only the snap kick (yellow oriole, which is about 8 out of the 12 sequences), trust kick (white horse), jumping kicks and sweeps. Even in the picture series the snap kicks are all named with the same pattern. I assume the other kicks mentioned are hidden in the snap kicks, but why not practise the kicks as they are meant to be employed in combat?

I ask purely out of interest, and may attempt learning in the future, but for now I will focus on my basic 16 combat sequences first. Right now these are just questions that I ask out of curiosity

[Frederick_Chu]

Hey there, wonderlusterer,

Tantui is a great distillation of Northern Shaolin. In fact, it was what I originally wanted to specialize in, before I found my calling in Baguazhang. The agility and footwork really called out to me, to say nothing of the tricky kicks and long range.

You're correct that the combat sequences of Tantui are Grandmaster Wong's composition. They're not necessarily the way Tantui was practiced in the past. In fact, about five years ago, I personally couldn't find any references to the way Northern Shaolin (Tantui or otherwise) was practiced in the past other than individual techniques or "sparring sets" such as that found in the Wong Jack Man lineage of Northern Shaolin, which descends from Ku Ruzhang, who was himself most famous for his Iron Palm. Otherwise, it would seem that from my own searches that most Tantui practitioners would do what most schools do, that is, train the application of individual techniques and train to meet specific situations with specific techniques, which has its advantages and disadvantages. That presumes that such practitioners understand that Tantui itself can be used for self defense. In fact, most Tantui practitioners that I met face to face simply treated Tantui as a "warm up exercise," not realizing that they could use Tantui "as is" for fighting, provided they put in the time to build force and skills such as solid stances, agile footwork, proper timing & spacing, and all those skills you're currently working on through the basic Shaolin combat sequences.

One particular way that Tantui was used for sparring and combat comes from a past classmate of Grandmaster Wong, who is the grandmaster of the Chin Woo school of kung fu in Penang. You can read the short story here. In short, Tantui was applied much in the same way as we train sparring skills in Shaolin Wahnam: the sequence is trained to such a degree that it can be unleashed on an opponent, giving them no chance to counter.

Regarding whether or not one sequence could be used to counter another sequence, the answer to that is, "Absolutely, provided you have the skills." Some of the sequences are a bit easier, in my opinion, to use than others. For example, I personally found sequence 2 far easier to use directly in sparring compared to sequence 4. Whoever has the better skills, tactics, and sometimes just plain luck will more than likely come out the winner in any contest.

I can't speak for why the twelve classical sequences of Tantui don't demonstrate all the various kicks mentioned in the Q&A from 2004. One possibility comes from one of my past sifu's of Yang style Taijiquan. He mentioned that he was taught a version of the so-called Long Form that which had "incomplete" or "hidden" movements. A Seven Stars Kick to the shin might be "disguised" with the False Leg stance, for example, while an elbow strike might be "implied" with particular footwork but not actually performed. Those who were initiated by their teachers would know where these extra points were, while those who simply learnt the form would not get the fullest expression of that set's capabilities. I'm not saying that's what's done in the Shaolin Wahnam version of Tantui (which I believe Grandmaster Wong learnt from his classmate that I mentioned above), but it's something that some styles and practitioners will do.

Hope this gives you a start. There's plenty of fine material about Tantui and other styles of kung fu on the Shaolin Wahnam websites waiting to be found.

[Hubert]

Hi Wonderlusterer,

These are great answers by Frederick - thank you, Frederick!

Regarding the "extra set of sequences" created by Sifu that you mentioned in your post, we can put it simply like this:

The original 12 sequences are "solo" sequences. They have all the Tantui techniques either obviously demonstrated, or hidden inside them. However, for various reasons, not many people know how to apply or "decipher" these solo sequences. Sifu has therefore composed one "pair" sequence for each of the 12 solo sequences. For example in pair sequence one, you will find out how to apply the solo sequence one with a partner.

I hope this clarifies how the sequences work. To my knowledge this is unique to our school, as the combat and energy applications of Tantui have been lost for some time.

Best regards,

[wonderlusterer]

Hi Frederick,

the answer to that is, "Absolutely, provided you have the skills."

Seems to be the answer to everything in Shaolin Wahnam doesn't it?
Which is really cool, that we can use the same formulas and apply it to any style of martial art.

Hi Sifu Hubert,

Sifu has therefore composed one "pair" sequence for each of the 12 solo sequences. For example in pair sequence one, you will find out how to apply the solo sequence one with a partner.

Yes, and I've also noticed that in some sequences we don't move in a straight line anymore? For instance in road 1, the exponent turns sideways to kick the opponent (whom in reality would have moved to the side).

I wonder why the techniques have to be hidden though. Seeing that we are always adviced that we should train the way we fight and vice versa (with regards to using kung fu stances and attacks/defenses), wouldn't it be better to execute real stamp kicks, nail kicks, etc? Especially in a time when there is no longer a reason to keep these techniques as closely guarded secrets.

- Daniel