A Discussion on Yielding

[Antonius]

Dear Sifu Stier,

It's true that I singled you out with the video, although I didn't name you in it (god knows where these videos end up on the Internet). Mostly, I was just having fun with my new video editing skills. But you are correct that I was also trying to prove your comments wrong. Is that a surprise?

As for being smug and condescending -- well, I don't see myself that way (but it's interesting that you use those words). I see myself as honest. I do not call myself a master, but I am not afraid to disagree with someone who does. And that's exactly what I did.

I am satisfied with how I countered your comments about the technique being too slow. You can continue to defend your previous statements, but I've already made my points about the photos and the videos. People can see for themselves what these reveal. In the end, a video is worth thousands of words -- so you have a lot of typing to do in order to catch up.

It's interesting that you continue to point to the foot adjustment and weight shift in photos 3-4. I've already explained that. I also showed it in the video. I move foward by readjusting the front foot (and then the back foot). I may not move exactly the way Simon does, but the technique is similar enough.

Sifu Stier, you may have noticed that I was not the only one to jump in and say that I could do it in less than the 3-4 seconds you predicted. I think many of us were surprised at your analysis of the photos. George, who has only been with Shaolin Wahnam for a few years, also said that he could do it in under 3 seconds. It seems obvious to me that you made some incorrect assumptions about the photos. The strangest was your suggestion that Photo #1 involved a step forward or backward to meet the opponent. Why you assumed this is beyond me, but it's nice to see that you finally let go of that incorrect assumption. I wonder when you'll let go of the others.

Dear all,

Since Sifu Stier didn't answer my question, I'll throw it out to others. Do you think that the technique shown in my video is an effective way to yield and counter a push?

Best to all,

[Mark Blohm]

Combat Effective

Do you think that the technique shown in my video is an effective way to yield and counter a push?

Yes.........................and a few more thoughts. I don't practice Taijichuan(yet), but the picture and video provided that have demonstrated yielding appear to display(at least to me) basic Taijichuan principles. Why else would you practice push hands and strike hands? To train gracefullness? I think you practice it because it trains skills and techniques that are very effective in combat situations.

Mark

[Antonius]

Hey Mark.

To clarify one thing -- I don't practice or teach Taijiquan. I have learned Taijiquan from a few masters, including Sifu, but I do not practice it per se. I prefer to focus my practice on my passion -- Shaolinquan. It's already more than I need for the rest of this life.

My video may look like Taijiquan to some people. And that's no surprise since there are many similarities between Taijiquan and Shaolinquan. But to me, it's still just Shaolinquan.

Mark, I think you hit the nail on the head. My video -- whether one sees it as Taijiquan or Shaolinquan -- clearly demonstrates principles that are discussed in the Taijiquan classics. Can anyone name the principles?

Best,

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Sifu Korahais:

Well, OK then. If you can't do it as claimed, I understand. But then you should simply agree with me that the technique as depicted in the photo sequence is too much to perform against a live opponent in one (1) second. I have no problem with that. That's what I said to begin with!

Unfortunately, as it turns out, by publicly challenging my opinion and offering to prove me wrong by duplicating the photo sequence in one (1) second or less on video, you have sort of 'painted yourself into a corner' so to speak. At this point, if you do not provide the video proof of your claim as promised, or conversely, do not publicly admit that my assessment of the time factor was correct, then "Ni3 diu1 mianzi4" (You lose face) for allowing your words to make promises that your body can't keep!

I'm merely guessing here that all of you are taught to perform the technique in question with the stance and footwork you demonstrated in your video, not as depicted in the still photos. If that's true, simply acknowledging that fact resolves the debate quite nicely as well, since you clearly demonstrated that the technique...with less footwork....can be performed in the one (1) second time frame or less.

It is my humble opinion, that to hedge on this now, and dismiss it as unimportant, is inappropriate for a Sifu of your standing. Just my opinion. I promise not to debate this with you any further, regardless of how you decide to end it.

Respectfully ~

Sifu Stier

[DarkCosmoz]

My video -- whether one sees it as Taijiquan or Shaolinquan -- clearly demonstrates principles that are discussed in the Taijiquan classics. Can anyone name the principles?

1. Your force starts from the rear leg, is controlled by the waist and is manifested at the hands.

2. As a result of #1, you differentiate between apparent and solid.

Yielding, neutralizing and attacking is all there.

I know I'm missing a few things...



Stephen

[Antonius]

Dear Sifu Stier,

Are you sure that I'm the one losing face here? It's rare that I actually laugh out loud, but this time, I can honestly write: LOL.

I did exactly as I claimed. I proved my point -- with videos and with words. Just because you continue to stand there shaking your head doesn't mean I've lost face. It just means that you can't see when you are wrong -- which is something we've known for a long time, Sifu Stier.

For example, you were wrong about photo #1. You somehow imagined it to be an extra step, which it obviously is not. Rather than admit that you were wrong, you instead said "let's forget about photo #1".

How you can conclude that your error makes me lose face is beyond me. But thanks for the chuckle.

Smilingly,

[Charles David]

Dear Siheng,

Forgive me for publicly challenging you like this, but I thought that Sifu Stier had the copyright on laughing out loud at people: "what a hoot!"




Winkingly Yours,

[Sifu Stier]

BWAAAHAHAHA! Right back at ya, boys. LOL What a hoot indeed! The laugh is on you, man.

Oh, yes, I am totally sure that it is you who lost face. You arrogantly bragged that you could exactly duplicate the still photo sequence in one (1) second or less, and would prove it on video. The fact of the matter is that you didn't duplicate it on your video, because you can't do it in one second as claimed. If you could actually do it, you would have done so to begin with, or would have produced another one since then to refute my allegations by showing that you can.

Instead, you and your supporters offer up lame justifications of "close enough", "similar", "almost the same", and "unimportant"....all of which essentially proves your claim was bogus from the start. All of your transparent writing tactics and strategies which constantly attempt to create diversion, redirection, and justification also prove the same. They only serve to further validate that you can't deliver the goods...even without the step needed to assume the 'defensive ready' stance of photo #1.

What a grand joke this has been. If you pulled a stunt like this on any other online martial arts forum, you'd take so much flack that you'd never hear the end of it. I've tried to give you every opportunity to make good on your boast, but it's all been a great waste of time, because you can't do it! And all of this would never have happened if you hadn't been so anxious to make an example out of me with your false claim. How embarrassing for you!

[Mark Blohm]

...even without the step needed to assume the 'defensive ready' stance of photo #1.

Dear Sifu Stier,

This is a basic stance in our school. If I were in a more vertical stance, some different footwork would occur........but the beginning of the ecounter happens to find the defender in a bow arrow stance(photo 1).

I think it's possible to be pushed in a number of different stances. Do you agree?

Keeping it cool,

Mark

[Antonius]

Dear all,

You know what's going to be funny? Watching Sifu Stier hoot and howl after I post another video with an exaggerated footwork adjustment -- and still do it in a second. It will have to wait a while until I can borrow a digicam again, but I think it will be fun.

Dear Sifu Stier,

I can deliver. Time and again. Just watch.

And we'll all enjoy watching you. Not on video, of course. You don't do videos. You just do keyboards. And threats. And hoots. So instead of watching you on video, we'll enjoy watching you squirm your way out of yet another mess. And squirm you will. I'm sure of that.

By the way, remember way back when I made my arrogant boast? I mentioned that I had my suspicions about how you would react to the video. Well, in case you were wondering -- I suspected right. I just wish that I had written down my predictions and mailed them to you. I'll try to remember that for next time.

Also, I find it amusing that you mention other martial arts forums. I'm a member of several of them, and I've seen your posts. From what I saw, you weren't particularly well received on those forums. Here is one of your quotes from another martial arts forum:

In the meantime....I am obviously wasting my time and efforts here....so I yield this thread to you and the other 'cyber-experts' posting here. Good luck....you're gonna need it!

Light To All!

Now, if you were to dismiss those forums as being full of teenage cyber experts, I might be tempted to agree with you. But then, your last post referred to those forums as if they were some sort of an authority. So which is it? The forums that didn't take you seriously -- were they martial arts authorities, or were they full of cyber experts?

Yielding and countering time and again,

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Mr. Blohm:

Totally agreed. We could be pushed from the front or rear, from either side, from any conceivable angle at any time. We could be standing in any number of different natural stances or defensive ready stances when this occurs.

My point was that the stance shown in the photograph appears to be a defensive ready stance which was assumed by adjusting the feet when the incoming assault was perceived. People don't usually just stand around publicly in a stance like that outside of their practice training time, but rather move into such a stance as circumstances require to meet the attack in a more stabile posture...in this case when about to be pushed or shoved by a would-be assailant.

Regards ~

Sifu Stier

[Sifu Stier]

Sifu Korahais:

Oh, no! Should I now be trembling with fear and trepidation? Nice try at subliminal suggestion, or whatever you perceive those word pictures to be, but I don't think it's gonna fly over here. I already told you twice previously that I would enthusiastically applaud your success publicly on this Forum if and when it came to pass. So there will be nothing to "squirm out of" as you say, whatsoever, as I am already prepared to give you credit where credit is due and deserved. But this time, I'll only believe you when I actually see it. The only mess here is the one you created for yourself.

One quote from one other forum out of context from a discussion there has no meaning or relevance to this one whatsoever. I have read your posts on other forums as well, and have noticed that you are more low key and conservative in your posts elsewhere. A wise decision no doubt! I never said other forums held any authority at all. I said that you'd take alot of flack for doing elsewhere as you've done here on your home turf. Nothing more...nothing less.

These are merely more diversionary redirection tactics on your part as far as I'm concerned. You are at least consistently predictable....always trying to keep your opposition on the defensive. It sure seems to me like your tactics are not working too well, though. Oh, well, maybe next time...or the time after that...or maybe not!

[Michael Udel]

Something to consider

Dear Sifu Anthony K.,

Looking at your most recent post to Sifu Stier (as of this moment! things happen fast on this thread as I see Sifu Stier responded while I was writing this. Nonetheless...), which I chopped up below, there's something I'd like to suggest to you.

Dear all,

You know what's going to be funny? Watching Sifu Stier hoot and howl after I post another video with an exaggerated footwork adjustment -- and still do it in a second. It will have to wait a while until I can borrow a digicam again, but I think it will be fun.

Also, I find it amusing that you mention other martial arts forums. I'm a member of several of them, and I've seen your posts. From what I saw, you weren't particularly well received on those forums.

I have observed that people in general who have survived long enough and worked hard enough to develop knowledge and expertise in any field of endeavor also develop a style of communication specific to that endeavor. Basically, when you have great skill and it has been proven over a long period of time, the desire to argue about what is the best way to do something falls away with the years. In the Internal Arts I think this is doubly true. Bricklaying might just be a job, but long term mastery of an Internal Art usually encompasses one's whole being.

For example, I have heard Sifu Collett say that he doesn't engage in "circular arguments". It was immediately clear to me what he was talking about and I think it shows that he has reached a certain level of knowledge and expertise in Shaolin Kungfu, and therefore in life in general, and that he knows what's what and can measure the value of his time and energy doing what he knows compared to arguing with someone about what he already knows he knows.

Another example I would like to give is your statement about not wanting to argue with people about whether or not running is good for their health. You're preaching to the choir on that one, and again it's crystal clear why you would not want to spend valuable time in such a debate when you could be doing just about anything else, including meeting all your responsibilities of being one of the primary custodians of this forum where people can argue about jogging all they want while you do better things like, like just about anything I can think of God, I've always hated running.

I am sure that nothing I am saying so far is a particular insight to you. Thanks for your patience thus far.

Now imagine how things will be in 20-30 years from now when you have greater responsibilities to your medical practice, more kungfu students, perhaps your own family (not to mention your current family), all of this in the context of obeying the Shaolin Law requiring you to teach to kungfu to worthy students. Your knowledge, experience, and responsibilities will have increased tremendously and the number of people asking you fairly similar, and often repetitive questions will have multiplied as well. I know that you and most all SW students have learned well from Sifu Wong's example not to be annoyed by stupid questions, but we're all human and it can wear on the best of us, so just consider the years and what sort of communicatino style you might gradually develop to best deal with it.

Certainly you will be able to manage it, there is no question, and I mean that sincerely, but what I would like you to imagine is what kind of communication style will you develop in the next 20-30 years? All of the teachers I have that are in this category have distinctive communication styles that reflect three elements: 1) their cultural background; 2) their expertise and knowledge; 3) their dedication to their students and patients, which came as a result of their love and their desire to spread the wonderful knowledge they worked so hard to earn, often at the request of their master.

Usually, after learning more about the cultural background of a Master of the Internal Arts, some of the reasons they have for how they teach and their communication style make sense according to their history: where they're from. All of my teachers are much older than me, and even those who come from the USA and speak English have vastly different cultural backgrounds than I do, and honestly, I can only imagine what it was like for them to grow up in a period of American history so different from my own. Two of my teachers spent time in prison during the Chinese Great Cultural Revolution, and perhaps without this knowledge, I would misunderstand their intentions, habits, and communication styles.

Best wishes,
Michael

[subclock]

too much dualism ? if this then that ?

Hi everyone ,

I just wanted to add something which I think has been left out with regards to the ' one second video clip ' .

The pictures and Anthony's video show the same technique/skills ( my opinion yes ) . They are just represented/demonstrated in differernt ways . The pictures are to me a breakdown of the technique into many parts ( which is very good for understanding underlying principles and strategies ) . While the video is the Streamlined application .

The picture sequence is what I would expect to learn first as a beginner if I was struggling to grasp the movements in their streamlined form . Then as my understanding grows I would make my Kung Fu come Alive .

It happens in Kung Fu all the time . It happened in my Taijiquan school as well . It even happened in my old Karate Dojo, so I really don't understand why there is any issue . We would be taught a technique in several parts . Then we would be taught how to apply it all in one streamlined movement .
Just because there was a little foot change difference in the pictures, does not discredit anything . Honestly, I know breakdancers who can pull off many more footwork movements and weight adjustments ( of more complexity ) in less than a second .

Also I want to add that even if the move could not be performed in less than one second, that still does not discredit the move in a fighting situation . Many combat situations allow for "slower" applications and not every assailant is Bruce Lee . I'm not saying that they are any less dangerous, but not all fighting takes place in bullet time
Also, I am sure we all know the saying : Start Later , Arrive Earlier .

Best Wishes ,
Kevin

[subclock]

I just wanted to add when I started posting Michael Udel's and Sifu Stier's latest posts were not there yet . I didn't ignore you guys on purpose .