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My master sometimes responds to a kick simply by moving in and punching the kicker before the kick has got going, in the groin for instance. I presume this is the type of thing you mean.
Also, some of the first moves he ever showed me when I met him were direct counters. For example when I threw a punch at him he simply punched through my punch! I.e. my punch was in motion, his fist shot through my punches line of movement (deflecting it) and on through to my eye where thankfully he stopped it!
Both these obviously are also examples of "start later, arrive earlier."
The new topic in a new thread was an excellent attempt at re-direction...which I presume was intended to deflect attention away from your failed attempt to actually duplicate the application of the techniques and footwork presented in the still photo sequence earlier in this thread...as claimed...in one (1) second or less...on video...against a live opponent. Just to make sure that you duplicate the photo presentation accurately, let's review it frame by frame.
Photo #1 shows the defender either stepping forward with the right foot to make initial contact with the pushing assailant, or stepping backward with the left foot when making initial contact with the assailant while remaining weighted on the forward right leg. It's nearly impossible to determine exactly which foot made the step in a still photo, but you can clarify that in your new video clip...perhaps demonstrating both ways for speed comparison.
Photo #2 shows the defender shifting his weight backward onto the rear left leg and foot while beginning to yield and neutralize the frontal push to his right side using both hands.
Photo #3 shows the defender completing the neutralization to his right side with his left hand on or near the assailant's right elbow while extending his right arm and hand forward across the assailant's chest, simultaneously withdrawing the forward right leg and foot and repositioning it from the inside to the outside of and behind the attacker's front leg in preparation for the throw or takedown to follow.
Photo #4 shows the defender advancing his rear left leg and foot forward and somewhat leftward to execute the throw or takedown with his armbar and right hand applied to the attacker's chest while tripping him over the repositioned right leg.
I stated my opinion that most fighters other than accomplished and experienced masters would have difficulty performing this series in only one second or less....which I feel would be necessary if it is to be successfully executed before the assailant can react with other steps or hand techniques. As such, I agree that the technique is potentially a good one...so I am only questioning the amount of time it requires to perform. You confidently assured everyone that you are capable of performing this series of movements against a live assailant in one (1) second or less, and would prove your claim by so demonstrating the series shown in the still photos on a video clip. I greatly admire your courage in generously offering to do so, and look forward to your revised video clip.
Respectfully ~
Sifu Stier
Last edited by Sifu Stier; 20 March 2006, 06:12 AM.
Your comments on Anthony's video are an excellent attempt to redirect the attention away from the questions I am now placing for the third time in this thread.
Originally posted by WahnamCH
Originally Posted by WahnamCH
What are the differences in the understanding of Taijiquan principles to which you refer? I am not a Taijiquan practitioner but am very keen to learn more about the relevant principles --- particularly as they all (at least what I have read/seen/experienced until now) are also reflected in Shaolin Kung Fu.
Sifu Stier, I would still greatly appreciate your input on this.
Originally Posted by Sifu Stier
I never said these examples are necessarily wrong. I said that they are not typical of techniques taught in the Old Yang Style of Tai-Chi Chuan, and thus do not reflect what what I practice or teach.
I agree. But you did say that what was presented (visually and written I assume) demonstrated a different understanding of basic principles. It is here that I am looking for the clarification if possible.
Out of curiosity, who thinks that the video I posted is a different technique from the pictures Marcus posted? Please be honest. I'm just curious.
It's the same technique, except Simon performed it in a slightly different way (making the necessary adjustments for the way Mark moved.) There will always be such differences when applying against a real partner.
That said, in my very humble opinion, I think Sifu Stier is trying hard to add extra steps.
I disagree with treating photo #1 as a separate step - it is the starting point for Marks push.
Steps #2 and #4 are clearly in your video.
Step #3 (the adjusting of the defender's foot from inside to outside of attackers body) is not in your video, but then why should it be in a solo demonstration? It is a reaction to the real partner in front!
However, the actual adjustment would add almost no time to the overall sequence. The weight is on the back foot during the yield so moving the front foot around to the other side is really easy - I am speaking from personal experience here. Obviously there will be slight adjustments in width of stance, maybe a little shuffle-step after the adjustment, but these happen naturally and only show up in partner practice, rather than a solo demonstration. It's all part of the applications being 'alive'.
All I'd say is the step into the technique wasnt as big as in the pictures. In the pictures the step, I believe, moves to the other side of the opponents leg. Other than that I see no differences.
"To know the riches of the martial arts, begin by standing still" - Grand Master Wang Xiang Zhai
I only see the footwork differences, but I don't see that causing a speed problem.
From my thinking, much of the speed of the whole encounter depends on the speed of the attack. However, I think the defender(responder) would have more speed control over the second part of the attack, that's where his technique could be very fast if desired. The first part of the defender's technique may be very slow if the attack is very slow.
"Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."
I think the issue lies between pictures 2 and 3. You see the footwork adjustment made by Simon, but what the picture series adequately fails to convey is the extent of the footwork adjustment. When I initially viewed the footage, I thought that Sifu Anthony had both feet planted for the execution of the technique--I now see that he does lift up his front foot. Whether that is enough of a footwork change (or fast enough) to bring your leg around the other person's front foot is a question of skill and mastery. That said, taijiquan is famous for varying the outward form during application to meet the needs of a given situation--accounting for the numerous differences in performing the set. It seems similar enough to me.
There's an old American saying which states "Close only counts when tossing horseshoes or hand grenades." Anyone with at least one good eye can see that Sifu Korahais's slick little video only duplicates the arm and hand technique of the previously posted still photo series, but not the footwork. The video is not the same.
I didn't ask to have extra steps inserted into the sequence. They are clearly present in the still photos, and clearly absent in the video! Changing steps and footwork generally take more time to perform than do hand techniques alone performed in a fixed stance without steps. This is not just my personal opinion, but a known fact. This was my initial point regarding the amount of time required, and as such, I await the revised video which exactly duplicates the photo sequence in One (1) Second or less.
Well, it seems that several people think it's close enough for jazz. I also think so. I'll briefly explain why, but then I'll move on because it doesn't matter. What matters is that my video shows an effective way to yield and counter in less than a second.
But to address your earlier points, Sifu Stier, I disagree that there are 4 steps. There are certainly 4 photos, but not 4 steps. From the photos, I see no reason to assume that photo #1 involves a step backward or forward. It is the starting position. Nothing more. Photos #2-3 are pretty clear in my video, and I'm not going to argue these. As for Photo #4, Simon did readjust his foot. It goes from in front of Mark's leg to in back of it.
Now, if you watch my video again, you'll see that I am gaining ground each time I do the technique. How do I gain ground? I do it by readjusting my front foot as I shift into Horse stance. That footwork is quite similar to what Simon shows and does not affect the speed of the technique.
I'm not going to revise the video. I've shown enough already. How many videos would I have to make before you would concede the point, Sifu Stier? Honestly, I don't think you would ever concede the point, even if I made 100 videos.
Maybe I would consider revising if it was a fair exchange where you were also providing videos, or at least images, to substantiate your arguments. But you aren't. You seem fully capable of posting pictures of Buddhas, art, and icons (which are lovely), but incapable of posting images of yourself. And yet when others post images or videos, they never seem to be good enough.
I can't even count how many videos and pictures there are of me out there on the Internet. This gives me credibility and proves that I am not just a scholar with a keyboard. Heck, I even custom-made a video for this discussion. But even that wasn't good enough for you, Sifu Stier.
The important thing that it is good enough for other people. I've demonstrated the technique, and shown that it can be done in under 1 second. Getting back to the topic at hand, would you agree, Sifu Stier, that this techique is an effective way to yield and counter a push?
You seem fully capable of posting pictures of Buddhas, art, and icons (which are lovely)
I agree! I made "Inner Smile" my desktop wallpaper. And Sifu Michael D., I really loved that picture of you and the full-size, standing Laughing Buddha. Thanks to you and Sifu Stier for the wonderful photos. Please don't stop.
Going back to nearly the beginning of this thread on post #3, Yun Xiang got the good graphics going, and all the hard work by Sifus Santer, Korahais and others have certainly made this thread worthwhile. Thanks for all your excellent work! I think it's really paid off for everyone.
Best wishes,
Michael
Take kindness and benevolence as basis.
Take frankness and friendliness to heart.
Truthfully...I'd probably be willing to let you off the hook on this video issue, except for the fact you were so quick to jump all over my assessment of the actions depicted in the still photo sequence with your condescendingly smug claim that you could easily perform the technique as shown in the photo sequence against a frontal push in one (1) second or less, and that you would prove me wrong in my assessment by clearly demonstrating your ability to exactly duplicate the photo sequence in a video clip.
You even asked me what I would say...how would I respond...after seeing your video proof? I'm still not sure whether you were asking me how I would respond to being proven wrong by your video, or if you were asking how I would respond to proof of your mastery in the video, since I stated my belief that only "accomplished and experienced Masters" would likely be capable of exactly duplicating the photo sequence technique in one second or less?
The video clip you then presented...which was very nicely produced by the way...made deliberate use of direct quotes from my posts...with my name attached...to insure that every viewer understood who it was that you were intending to target with your video demonstration. An impressively slick little presentation to put Sifu Stier in his place is really what it was all about, right? Well, along with the ego gratification of discrediting me and proving me wrong, too, of course! Right? OK! Great! I'm game. So where is it?
I neither request nor wish to view 100 videos of you performing this technique. But all things considered at this point...I would like to see you do it one time exactly as depicted in the still photo sequence....as per your claim. That's all. Just one video...in one second or less...one time...to substantiate your claim. Nothing more....nothing less!
I give you my word that I will enthusiastically acknowledge your proof when I see it, and again reaffirm my admiration for your courage in boldly making the claim and then proving it! As you well know I'm sure, in the martial arts world alot of people make alot of claims about alot of skills, but very few are able to actually substantiate their claims. And so, I definitely consider those who can 'a cut above the rest' to be sure.
Regarding the photos in question, let's forget about photo #1, and consider that the technique begins when the defender places his hands on the pusher and commence shifting backwards to yield to and neutralize the push as in photo #2. That's one (1) weight shift.
The defender then has to completely withdraw his lead foot to step around the pusher's forward leg and foot, and advance forward on the outside of the pusher's leading leg in order to reposition it for the takedown, along with properly positioning his leading right arm and hand for the takedown...as shown in photo #3. That's a withdrawal step and a forward step with the defender's front leg and foot, accompanied by another full weight shift forward. That's two (2) separate weight shifts so far.
The defender then takes another full step forward with his rear left foot and drops his advancing body weight downward to execute the takedown which completes the technique. That's three (3) separate weight shifts and three (3) steps...not counting the preparatory step needed to get into the stance of photo #1...against a live opponent performing a two handed frontal push....in one (1) second or less! Nothing to it, right?
Or...you could always just agree with me that it's too many steps, and too many weight shifts, to effectively perform with balance and body contol throughout in only one second.
In fairness to you, I acknowledge that you did a beautiful job of demonstrating the movements depicted in photo #2 and photo #3 in one second, but that's not what you claimed you would demonstrate....and so, that's just not good enough...even if your supporters think so.
Details can be very annoying sometimes, can't they? And the hell of it is that I think you can do it.....if you believe you can!
As you well know I'm sure, in the martial arts world alot of people make alot of claims about alot of skills, but very few are able to actually substantiate their claims. And so, I definitely consider those who can 'a cut above the rest' to be sure.
Sorry Sifu Stier. I apologise because I am quite certain you will find this post an attack even though it isn't one. Your above comment is, however, extremely interesting. You have seen much video and photographic material from Shaolin Wahnam instructors to which you always make claims. But we have seen nothing to substantiate any of the claims you have made and continue to make. Does this make you "a cut above the rest" in this respect?
Oh --- still waiting for answers to my questions which have been repeated in posts 160, 167, 192 and 199 of this thread. If you are not going to answer these basic and fundamental questions, then please let me know.
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