Kung Fu – A karmic burden?

[Andrew]

I like that Chris.

Andrew

[Michael Udel]

a question

Sifu Andrew mentioned this thread today, so here I am, reading about the karmic burden of kungfu he wrote about one year ago. Here's my question:

In the context of kungfu, including Shaolin Kungfu and Taijiquan, being a fighting system, can you ultimately improve yourself by learning how to harm others? Is kungfu just an inter-personal arms race with your fellow man?

Hoping to hear your opinions,
Michael

[8nsteen8]

-

Many good questions are raised here.

The question i am asking myself is the difference in level of Chi Kung (18 Lohan Hands) and Shaolin Kung Fu teached by Sifu Wong? Do you take yout health, vitality and spiritual progress to another level practising Kung Fu?

I believe that the shaolin monks if i put it simple developed a system that would keep their bodys and minds strong and healthy to help them in their spiritual progress and at the same time teach them how to defend themself from attackers. They certainly needed the skill to defend themself.

Back to topic at hand.

Today, do we need the skill to harm others? I would say yes we need it, but in a much more different way than the Shaolin monks. We need it to be able to learn to show compassion and love for others. In a fight, choosing to use the skill of love/compassion when you also have the skill of harming is a way i believe some need to go to understand the power of love.

Maybe the same when you have alot of Money, then you are certainly put in front of a big test of the path you choose. What you use your money for.

Same with the athombomb. A big test for humanity.

We have always a choice and life put us in front of thoose choices we need to go through to be able to understand. Again and again and again until we choose the right path, first then are we ready for next step.

Some thoughts.

Thanks
Niklas

[Andrew]

In the context of kungfu, including Shaolin Kungfu and Taijiquan, being a fighting system, can you ultimately improve yourself by learning how to harm others? Is kungfu just an inter-personal arms race with your fellow man?

Excellent questions Michael. To answer, I'd like to make the distinction between the high level Arts you mention as we learn them in Shaolin Wahnam and other Arts which are of a lower level.

In Shaolin Wahnam, we learn the Arts as we believe they were originally intended. Learning to harm others is actually not a part of the training. As so nicely put by Niklas above, we learn compassion in fighting so that minimum force is needed and minimum damage (if any) is done in a fight. This is a limitation of negativity. As we do not engage in fighting without a truly urgent and just need, the question of intentional harming of others must take on a different context.

Again summarising, we are taught --- more compassion, less force, less damage, only when unavoidable and just do we fight at all. Our systems are taught at the highest of the levels mentioned in the original post.

If we remove, however, this high level and consider some of the "lower levels" noted in the article, then your assumptions could well be true. This is, then, another of the reasons we choose our Sifu, system and school.

Andrew

[Daniel]

Hi all,

It´s not Kungfu but your intentions that count. If you practise with an ill-intent in your mind then is a karmic burden (and then, kungfu, a knife or a stone can be the circunstamces or the tools).

If you don´t harbour bad thoughts, then kungfu training is very good for your karma as it developes very good qualities that will help you for your spiritual cultivation.

In fact, if you have negative thoughts is because of your own karmic burden (your past thoughts, deeds and words have conditioned your mind to be like now is), if you reinforce this thru incorrect kungfu practise (only thinking about how to hurt someone), then the habit, tendency or impulse would be a karmic burden in the future.

Greetings,
Daniel

[Michael Udel]

I am still very new to the actual practice of martial arts and have always thought about this topic. What you've said has confirmed my belief in the high level kungfu systems and the belief that the first priority is not actually fighting. I feel the first priority is self-improvement / spiritutal cultivation / advancement. Learning how to fight is part of the method. What you all said about intentions makes a lot of sense to me, too. Glad to hear this coming from people who have been at it a few years.

There just seems to be an unavoidable connection with kungfu and unwelcome violence no matter what your intentions are, such as the better you get, the more likely it is that some people will challenge you. It's scary to think that life can sometimes be just like a formulaic Western gun-slinger or Chinese kungfu film. Stories of the attacks on Sifu Ho, Sifu Kai, and Sifu Stier come to mind.

I suppose it's a good idea to keep constant focus on the daily and ultimate objectives of kungfu, but I often find my mind wandering to thoughts of fighting. I had these thoughts before practicing Taiji, but now they are in the context of how knowing Taiji would improve my figthing. Well, well, there it is: good old-fashined ego wanting to show off some power. So much for spiritual cultivation!

Thanks,
Michael

[dra9on]

wow Michael , you've dig out an interesting thread

kinda reminds me of this character - Daniel-san, in Karate Kid; his Sensei asked him ' Why you want to learn Karate ?.. ' ...he replied ' so that I don't have to fight..'



Calvin

[Ray]

I suppose it's a good idea to keep constant focus on the daily and ultimate objectives of kungfu, but I often find my mind wandering to thoughts of fighting. I had these thoughts before practicing Taiji, but now they are in the context of how knowing Taiji would improve my figthing. Well, well, there it is: good old-fashined ego wanting to show off some power. So much for spiritual cultivation!

Don't worry my friend,
It happens to me all the time but I am sure that once you develop some skill then the desire to fight and show off leaves you. I have heard that this is the way with most people who practice martial arts dedicatedly. It is often the ones who are insecure of their abilities that want to fight.

Best,

Ray

[Michael Udel]

Rda

Calvin, thanks for giving me my recommended daily allowance of Karate Kid references. No martial arts forum would be complete without it

Michael

[Clive]

Karmic Burden

I was taught that karma results from both physical action and the intention behind that action. If you are involved in a fight, and aggresively attack the other with anger and fear dominating your mind then the karma will be bad.

By developing compassion and wisdom, you remove the anger and desire to win. By becoming competent at defending yourself, you remove the fear that often leads to extreme violence. From this position of mental peace, your actions can be chosen.

Using violence may still be necessary and bad karma will result but when the intention is peace, then the "bad karmic load" will be less.

On a side note, many years ago I used to attend Tai Chi workshops held at a Tibetan Buddhist retreat centre. Geshe-la (the resident monk and teacher) could often be spotted watching us. My Tai Chi teacher asked Geshe-la what he thought about it. He said (after observing us over a period of about 3 years) that he had decided that Tai Chi was a good thing because it helped us to empty ourselves (the Zen cup of tea metaphor!) and because we were always laughing at our own foolish efforts.

Partner work definately allows you keep real - you can kid yourself that you understand yielding for instance or singleweightedness but when someone pushes - you will know. Its this aspect of martial arts that raises it above Yoga I think. And its this direct attack on ego that is lost when people don't work with the martial aspect of Tai Chi.

Training in martial arts can transform the body into a weopon but we can choose to use it to hurt and oppress another or wield it like Manjushri, to cut through ignorance, desire and anger.

sounds way more knowlegeable than I know I am.

Clive.

[Andrew]

Nice opening post Clive. Welcome aboard!

Andrew

[Maxime]

Hello Clive,

sounds way more knowlegeable than I know I am.

Sometimes we humans can surprise ourselves in mysterious ways! Don't underestimate yourself, we all have some glorious moments of light like this one (and for people like myself the moment may be very brief, turning off the switch light as fast as it turned on ).

Best regards,

Maxime

[8nsteen8]

Thanks

Thanks Clive for your post. It answered some questions that have been in my mind for a while.

/Niklas

[Michael Udel]

what's real and what's not

Partner work definately allows you keep real - you can kid yourself that you understand yielding for instance or singleweightedness but when someone pushes - you will know.

I like that, Clive, it's another reason I'm practicing Taijiquan--to see what's real and what's not.

Thanks,
Michael

[dra9on]

Calvin, thanks for giving me my recommended daily allowance of Karate Kid references. No martial arts forum would be complete without it
Michael

Well, I guess we've kinda grow up watching this heart warming 'yin' side of kungfu movies.

Back to the topic..yes.. it's all about intention coupled with action.

I guess when one have to fight(eg , defending ownself in dire situations), one have to fight..and if one hadn't learnt martial arts.. then he'll still resort to brawling to get out of a desperate situation.