Following Instructions

[Antonius]

But it hit me last night that these dynamic patterns resemble very much (or may even be) part of the Baduan Jin.

Yes, you are right. Ba Duan Jin (Eight Pieces of Brocade) originally came from the Shiba Luohan Shou (18 Lohan Hands). Versions of Lifting The Sky, practiced as part of Ba Duan Jin, are to be found all over the world in many different styles of Qigong. Ba Duan Jin is one of the most widely practiced types of Qigong worldwide.

I have studied several styles of Qigong over the years. If I had to pick a single dynamic Qigong exercise as the all-around best, I would choose Lifting The Sky without even thinking twice. I think Sifu and most of my seniors would agree with me on this.

To suggest that this exercise is "not qigong" or that it locks the joints illustrates not only a lack of understanding, but an unfortunate desire to place blame on something in spite of obvious, established evidence to the contrary. Lifting The Sky is most definitely Qigong, arguably even the quintessential example of dynamic Qigong. The number of people worldwide and throughout history who have benefitted from variations of this exercise can be counted in the millions.

Compared to some Taoist Qigong, Lifting The Sky has more "tension," mainly in the bent wrists, but this "tension" is intentional and important. Why do we bend the wrists? Fully understanding how and why a particular Qigong pattern works is something best left to the masters, but the rest of us can look at a few things.

The bent wrists, used in many Qigong patterns in many styles, act as a kind of "pump" for the meridians running up and down both arms. Combined with the downward-upward movement of the neck (another "pump"), the upward lengthening of the spine, the coordinated breathing, and the meditative intentions, you have an ingenius exercise that can benefit both beginner and master alike.

After practicing this exercise for 7 years, it's profundity still continues to amaze me on a daily basis. I attribute much of my success in Qigong to this exercise.

[Andrew]

I think Sifu and most of my seniors would agree with me on this.

And I think most of us juniors too Sihing

Andrew

[Mike B]

Lotuses grow in the strangest places

I have studied several styles of Qigong over the years.

....and mon ami? Any thoughts on which is the best yet?

I had almost 'given up' following this thread but pleased I didn't given your fascinating insight into the mechanics behind LtS - for those of us slightly short of the master level (like a few decades or more likely a few lifetimes), its great to have a little peep behind the curtain...

Also helpful at a purely technical level - I have never quite been able to square 'relax' with hands at 90degrees - however this idea that the residual tension is actually important will at least enable me to relax the mind if not the wrists

Mike

ps I see that Tom's post has made it to Sifus main page...

[Zhang Wuji]

Tom's post[/URL] has made it to Sifus main page...

Yes, which confirms that "real gold is not afraid of fire" (paraphrased Chinese idiom).

[Chiahua]

Yes, which confirms that "real gold is not afraid of fire" (paraphrased Chinese idiom).

Sorry I am a bit dense this morning (need some more tea!) What does that mean? True arts will stand up to criticism, or is resistant?
So the arms in LtS are not limp, but "charged" (not tense) and extended?
Great thread,
Chia-Hua

[Antonius]

Sorry I am a bit dense this morning (need some more tea!) What does that mean?

I think it means that real gold is not afraid to be tested in fire, as opposed to fake gold, which is afraid to be tested because it will be revealed for what it is in the fire.

And no, the arms are not limp in Lifting the Sky, but that's a subject for another thread.

[Zhang Wuji]

Yeah, Antonius is right, sorry about my limpy language

[drunken boxer]

Hello to Tom (if you still look at this forum!)
I sympathise with you because I too had many problems when first practising chi kung, I didn’t feel any ‘chi effects’ for the first 8 months or so of practise. I had many doubts but I kept practising because I had seen two masters and they were both powerful, full of vitality, and cheerful – I knew they must be doing something right!
And like you the first effect I felt was a bad one – a headache. And (when it subsided) I was delighted! Why? Because I’d practised for months and seemed to get no effect, I was unsure if I could make it work for me. When I got a headache at least that proved I could cause an effect from chi kung, albeit a negative one. I said to myself that it obviously was powerful stuff, but I mustn’t have been practising correctly, and I thought if I could redouble my efforts and practice correctly I could achieve a positive effect. Which turned out to be true, eventually.
My point is you seem to imply too conflicting views:
1. This chi kung is not powerful
2. It causes big problems
Obviously only one of these can be true!

As for the comparison between Hunyuan and Wahnam that you “didn’t like”, I was pointing out the similarities in aims, tactics and so on. Obviously the techniques and practice methods are very different, anyone can see that just by observing both arts being performed. I was just looking for the common ground. Still don’t like it? Ah well. Anyway that’s also for another thread.

I too agree that Hunyuan Taijiquan is a wonderful art. I also think those of us who practise it should aim for the values personified by its founder Feng Zhiqiang and his two masters Hu Yaozhen and Chen Fa Ke. For example, this quote is from an interview with Feng Zhiqiang:

“Ever since I started learning from both of those masters, I have never heard them say anything negative about anybody else, and they never talked highly about themselves either…
Master Hu, similarly, never expressed his opinion about other people. He always said, “you’re good, he's good." He always praised everybody else. When somebody’s martial art or life style had some problems, he never said anything about it, he would just say “I don’t know.””

So I think we should be grateful to have an opportunity to practise either art, and should try to practise well and encourage each other to do the same, not criticise each other, or our respective styles and masters. I think the guys on the forum are trying to encourage you and wish you well with practising Hunyuan, or Wahnam or whatever you decide. Remember, you have certain thoughts on the subject now, but these might change over time, as mine did.

Please, I’m not trying to preach, or talk down to you, or imply I know more than you – I’m no expert, only a beginner myself, (as I said I practised for 8 months with no success – and I challenge anyone to make as many mistakes as I did – and still do!) just relating some of my experiences and offering some thoughts because I think they might be helpful.

Paul.

[Charles David]

Respecting the Master

The first of the Shaolin Laws states that the student is 'Required to Respect the Master'. Sifu has pointed out that this is not for the master's benefit; I believe his wording went something like this: ''actually the master probably doesn't care whether or not you respect him more than his dog, respecting the master creates within you a suitable condition for learning.'' Indeed the laws are for our benefit, and if a student breaks them he may be asked to leave the school, not as a punishment, but because the training is not suitable for the student.

Also, we are also required to be chivalrous.

If we were to ask ourselves why Tom L. has failed in his attempts at Shaolin Chi Kung we need to look no further than the fact that he has not abided by the part of the very first Law which requires us to Respect the Master, whereby he has created an unsuitable condition for achievement.

Best Wishes,

cha

[Andrew]

Good point Cha. I am not sure it was really that which resulted in Tom's lack of success.

But maybe this is a good point to mention that respect for the Master is not something to pay lip service to, rather should come from the Heart.


I think this may be a good topic for our FAQ forum ... and here it is.

Andrew

[Charles David]

Hi Andrew,

Of course it couldn't have been the only reason why he was not successful. I do however suspect that, in theory, the kind of disrespect he was displaying could have prevented him from progressing. It seems like quite a deep problem really. At any rate the new thread you have started poses very good questions and I will try to answer them there.

Why is it, do you think, that Tom didn't achieve success. I am very curious about this, mainly because it bewilders me. Simply not following instructions?


Autumnally,

cha

[beausimon]

Hi,
Just out of curiosity, did Tom get a refund since he is not satisfied ?

Thanks.

[Andrew]

Hi Cha,

I think you'll find enough theories as to why Tom didn't succeed in this thread already. But that is what they will remain - theories.

beausimon,

I very much doubt he would get a refund. Sifu is extremely generous and offers refunds if people are not satisfied during the course. This cannot be extended for an unlimited period. If people do not think the course was worth the money they can ask for their money back there and then --- not a year later. As a comparison - someone enrolls for a 1 year college course. They take the full course and then fail the final examination for their diploma. Could they justifiably ask for a refund?

Andrew

[beausimon]

Hi Andrew,
I suppose 1 year is a bit too long

I have a question that could be slightly off-topic but related to Tom's problem.
He mentioned about qi in his head causing headache. Would the following from the self-manifested chi procedure (CK4H&V), be appropriate solutions if we get into similar situation?
1. Rubbing the baihui as suggested by sifu wong so that it gets stimulated to
function as a release valve for the qi.
2. Gently thinking of top of head and then on feet, as suggested by sifu
wong. I suppose this is to get the qi flowing from the head, although it
was not explicitly explained.



Thanks.

[Andrew]

You might like to look at this thread .

Sifu has made suggestions (in this case in his wonderful book) so why the question? But don't miss the KEY word in the second option you noted Gently thinking .

Andrew