Sparring With Boxers and Wrestlers

[Jamie Robson]

Hello everyone,

In my opinion, you can't rely on just striking in any MMA tournament.

Even with strikes as dangerous as Mike Tyson, if he misses, gets taken down by someone trained sufficiently in ground-work, it's over...simple.
If the rules allow striking, kicking and grappling, you need good attack & defence in all those categories, entering without all areas sufficiently trained, is not safety first.

I've seen many matches where one fighter plans to keep it standing, then within seconds he's taken down and losing against the opponent who was prepared for either stand-up or a ground based fight.

Classical boxing is less and less popular in MMA competitions because points are gained differently and there are far less rounds than a boxing match.
You will notice many fighters don't use the jab very much because it's often a wasted strike and can offer the opponent a chance to shoot. They tend to hold back and wait for clearer shots while chopping the opponent down with middle to long range kicks.

Best Wishes,

Jamie

[Shelley]

I once asked Sifu Wong if a kung fu master could beat a young Mike Tyson. His reply was simple. Of course. A boxer can only punch. A kung fu master can punch, kick, chop and grapple.

Just look at a boxer's stance. His legs are too open - he knows a boxer won't attack his groin. He defends his head with his fists. He knows his opponent won't shoot.

I prefer boxing, but in a fight without rules, an MMA specialist would win.

Kimbo



Royce Gracie vs Art Jimmerson

Record

[drunken boxer]

Dear brothers,

Dougie, yes I was a big fan of Tyson. I like Lewis but I think a young Tyson would have knocked him out very quickly. My boxing coaches agree. Tyson beat a number of guys who would also have dominated heavyweight boxing if they were around in this inferior era.

Jonny Siheng, yes it was a bit naughty of me to suggest that Tank Abbot, Kimbo Slice or especially Chuck Liddell were 'only' punchers. I saw Kimbo saying that Bas Rutten (who I'm a big fan of) had made a big difference to him to the extent that it would no longer be fair for Kimbo to fight someone who only used fists, ie no more bare-knuckle matches.

Jamie Siheng, yes I agree that if the striker misses and gets taken down by a grappler then its over for him.
In general this is what seems to happen in the UFC isn't it - in most of the striker versus grappler fights I've seen the striker hasn't managed to land cleanly before being taken down, whereas once the grappler gets the striker down for the most part the grappler does indeed finish it.
But I do think that Tyson is a special case, personally I believe his skill, speed, aggression and power would have overwhelmed any UFC fighter I've yet seen, also Tyson's favourite fighting distance is 'inside' so I think that grapplers would risk getting knocked out just as they were getting in to grappling distance.
Then again, Tyson himself said he didn't mind fighting someone like Bob Sapp in MMA who relies on size and power but that he wouldn't want to fight a top class martial artist - and I'm sure Tyson knows better than me!

Shelley, thanks for the links, that was a really good article, it says what I wanted to say about Kimbo better than I could put it.
I think that though he may need to learn martial arts techniques to survive against the grapplers (otherwise he'll get choked out again) if he is to do well and win fights, it will be by boxing - thats where he has the advantage.

For a bit of balance, here is the Kimbo vs Sean Gannon fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKb1jeg-fgI

Paul

[drunken boxer]

Thanks again for the replies, I've been trying to take the lessons offered on board.

I think I can sum up my thoughts on these matters more clearly now:

I think it comes down to technique, skill and force. My original point is that many martial artists think they can beat boxers because they have more/better techniques. I think boxers win 90% of the time because they have more skill and force.

Tyson's skill and force (not to mention speed and shen) were I believe on a totally different level to anything I've seen in the UFC, though he certainly lacked technique compared to them by his own admission.

In terms of Kimbo, I think his techniques are obviously limited compared to most UFC fighters but his skill in the boxing techniques is higher level than most, and his force is better than most. I think anyway, I guess time will tell!

One more interesting point I thought about Kimbo versus Tank was, I don't know if anyone noticed but the final knockout move was the one I always go on about, the best move in boxing, the "old one-two" (left jab followed by right cross). As we know external arts usually have to use muscular tension for power, which limits speed. So a left jab is fast, but not powerful, and a right cross is powerful but not fast (relatively). So how do they hit hard and fast - the one two. The jab is fast enough to land and causes enough distraction for the cross to land right behind it. In a way the one-two is like one really good punch! Luckily in kungfu two techniques aren't necessary for this effect!

[Darran]

Re: Fighting Boxers

Hello all....this is my first post so I'm rather nervous.
When I was in my early teens I had two battling older brothers who fought each other on a regular basis and the older one always won. In their early twenties they became training buddies and trained at a kickboxing club in Brighton together. However the older brother discovered Pak Mei kungfu and in skill completely left the other brother behind. So the other brother started weight training and boxing and became very bulky with muscle which he still is to this day at 45 years old. The Pak Mei brother passed away 7 years ago and in conversation with my boxer brother recently he said that when they sparred in later years the Pak Mei brother sometimes couldn't get near him and would be unable to stop some punches. This surprised me as my Pak Mei brother was far more skilled. My boxer brother's philosophy to this day in fighting, wether real or sparring is "take it or get out of the way" referring to punches. For him taking it seems quite the thing to do as his arms are so bulky when they are pressed to the body in the boxing defence style there does not seem to be a way in and he told me that he has taken many kicks from powerful kickers on his arms with impunity - "it always works" he said. And when they are worn out from kicking him he can land a punch and settle it!
Now I am rather the 'feminine' mummy's boy brother of the family. While they were beating each other to a pulp I was in my bedroom playing the guitar and reading books! So when I started to do Shaolin Wahnam last year I was rather laughed at by my surviving brother. It's bullshit he would say. The only thing that works is boxing....and who am I to argue considering that he is a fighter with 25 years experience? On friday I just finished a four day intensive with Grandmaster Wong (or should I say sigung?) where he did quite a lot of work on tackling a boxer. Today I went to see my brother with some potatoes from my allottment and we got talking about Kungfu and he comes out with the same old stuff about 'boxing is the best - take it or get out of the way'. Then he shows me his tried and tested defensive boxer moves with the arms protecting everything, head down. So I came in with Lohan and covered one of his arms out of the way and now I have to visit him in hospital. No not really, that last part is a lie! When I did this he just looked at me and said 'Oh yes, you could do that, that would work'. In 25 years nobody had EVER tried that!

[Bernardo]

Hi Darran...

I liked your first post.

[Jonny Say]

Thanks for your post Darran, it was very interesting.

All the best

Jonny

[drunken boxer]

Latest Kimbo fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur4GfOJ9Q7U

[Darran]

That was a short legend!

[Omar]

So I came in with Lohan and covered one of his arms out of the way and now I have to visit him in hospital.

I'm sorry, but for a short milisecond there I started laughing before I had read the part that is was a joke. Please forgive me!

[Darran]

To cover one of his arms out of the way and strike is easy in slow motion but in reality it does not seem possible with a skilled boxer at full speed. One of these days I'm going to visit my brother with gum shields, gloves and some head-gear. I think getting out of the way via good footwork will be the key to defeating him and I am thinking of adopting some fast multiple punches like those in Wing Chun. Perhaps somebody out there would also like to give me some tips. My brother seems to punch in sets of three from what I have seen.

[Jonny Say]

Safe coverage is crucial

Hi Darran

You raise some very interesting points:

To cover one of his arms out of the way and strike is easy in slow motion but in reality it does not seem possible with a skilled boxer at full speed.

You must practice this until you are skilful also. If the boxer is far superior in skills then it will be very difficult to beat them. If however for many months you practice the skill of cover chase and strike with less and less compliance from partners then after 3-6months you will handle your brother. Of course you must have sufficient internal force and skills in basic kung such as footwork and counter strikes.

The most important part is having the skill to tame and cover on the outside gate ideally above the elbow, then their only option is to bounce back or to spin on the spot. If they bounce back then cover and chase or kick as they enter kicking range. If they spin then you must have skilful footwork to step off also and retain safe coverage. Practice, practice, practice!

I think getting out of the way via good footwork will be the key to defeating him

This is very true, good footwork is always the key via our stances. Also try the tactics from this video series which Sigung so generously shares:

http://www.shaolin.org/video-clips-3...rcelona17.html

In fact the tactic to lean back and kick a boxer (as in our sequence 9) is one of the most effective and works very well alongside cover chase and strike. You must have good skills in timing and spacing and forceful, balanced and fast kicks to implement it.

I am thinking of adopting some fast multiple punches like those in Wing Chun

This is only good if you have safe coverage like in chase cover strike tactic. Otherwise they can hit you as you hit them and in Shaolin Kung Fu we never exchange blows, we aim to be untouchable. Leapord strikes are so fast that if combined with good coverage then these are very effective, also striking low such as precious duck (underneath the boxer whilst covering his arms) is also effective.

My brother seems to punch in sets of three from what I have seen

You must be able to cover sets of 1,2,3 etc from all angles of attack and have the skills and perception to get on the outside gate-tame two with one and counter strike. Also remember the tactic of using kicks against boxers.

There is lots to discuss here so hopefully others will join in and I will share some more thoughts later on this.

[Omar]

Hi Darran, theory is always less then practise, but heres a suggestion. If he does the three hit combo that many boxers do it is probably automated for him what hand he punches with first, same with rest of the sequence?

Take note of this, and as the first punch comes, even tho he is probably faster and more skilled having practised for 25 years, if you know what is coming it should be possible to act.

Counter his first punch with a single tiger that will also close him as you step in to strike/poke/tickle or however you do things in your family brawls

During the course in July when we were working on techniques on boxing I found it very hard when posing as the boxer to counter pressing attacks, especially when the opponent applied good footwork.

Also, instead of just closing him with the single tiger, grip his wrist and pull down and chop/tap his now exposed neck/head with chop hua mountain or hang a golden star.

Or just grip and caress his ear and say "awww". in a soothing voice. Might be good to drop his consentration.

Theory always seems easy, just as "sit in the horse stance comfortably for ten minutes" sounds easy on paper, so dont stick your chin too far out

Or, instead of the small novel I wrote above; just Happy bird!

Edit: Closing someone above the elbow is a very good tip. I will keep this in mind. Thanks Sihing Jonny!

[Omar]

double post

[Chiahua]

I am thinking of adopting some fast multiple punches like those in Wing Chun

This is only good if you have safe coverage like in chase cover strike tactic. Otherwise they can hit you as you hit them and in Shaolin Kung Fu we never exchange blows, we aim to be untouchable. Leapord strikes are so fast that if combined with good coverage then these are very effective, also striking low such as precious duck (underneath the boxer whilst covering his arms) is also effective.

Are you are thinking about the "chain punches" in wing chun? If I'm not mistaken, they don't seem to have a "built in" defence, it's just fast successive punching. They also appear to be fast, short range punches. Unless extremely good with them, the exponent could be ignoring the principle "avoid strength, attack weakness". A boxer might have an easier time guarding against these punches than a wing chun style low kick.
Edit: no, chain punches are a bit more sophisticated than I thought: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVpd7rJxLBw
But still, using short against short doesn't strike me as being safe. Pun intended.