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In Sifu Wong Kiew Kit's book on Tai Chi Chuan, there are many combat sequences depicted with major points highlighted. Is it possible for me to practice these sparring sequences alone without a partner? Will I somehow improve combat efficiency?
IT is my opinion that sparring is one of the most damaging things for real self defence! IT just does not happen like that in the streets. Sparring causes one to get a false sense of security. The street fighter does not know who you are nor that you know a martial art etc. So he is not wary of you. He will attack you with methods that you have never come up against in the sparring. Sparring with a friend, you are not out to kill each other, you are friends. In the street he is out to kill you!
The very best method of learning how to defend yourself using all that you have learnt, is what we call "Attack/Defence" methods where the instructor puts on all of the protective gear and then attacks the student with full force and ferocity as it would happen in the street. If the student does not register a valid method of self defence, then he gets struck! It puts the fear of God into the students, but that's the way it happens in the street, one second and you are dead! It's not a game or a sparring match!
And you cannot simply take the postures from Taijiquan and practice them over and over with a partner as this again turns an illogical martial system into a logical one and it is NOT logical in the street! You cannot use a square martial system to defeat a round method! There are many abstract traiing methods which enable us to sub-consciously learn how to defend oursleves, like the small and large san-sau and the advanced p'eng/hinge push hands drills etc. The form postures only give us the correct way of moving the body so that we can then train in the more advanced methods with correct movement. Fa-jing is the engine of Taijiquan, without it, you will lose in the street. Fa-jing only comes after some time of practising all that you have learnt.
The more advanced methods take us intoe the Reptile Brain method where we no longer fight like human beings but rather like wild animals. This is what Taijiquan and all internal martial arts are all about, causing the BODY to do the dirty work, keeping the mind safe.
If you have MA background and familiar with Taiji(or any other styles) then you can do it. However, to do this correctly, you need one crucial ingridients: Internal force.
Why? Based on my understanding, (Haven't learned it yet, still 2 more months to go...) because internal force increases your senses and most importantly force. Remember technique is the least determining factor in a combat (It can be to a point where it's just not factor!!!). You need force and force and force. Did I mention Force ?
Sifu Wong excellently illustrate this point in his kungfu books.
You want a real life example ? Watch Bob Sapp fighting in PrideFC. Do you want to know what's hist MA style is ?
NFL!!! That's right NFL!!! But he beat everyone because of his force (Just brute force though, not internal force like Sifu Wong is talking about, but still...)
"Franciskus, Open Your Chest" Sifu Wong (Intensive Kungfu Course 11/23 -11/29/04)
Thank you Master Erle Montaigue. I thought you were not going to join this forum?!
The very best method of learning how to defend yourself using all that you have learnt, is what we call "Attack/Defence" methods where the instructor puts on all of the protective gear and then attacks the student with full force and ferocity as it would happen in the street. If the student does not register a valid method of self defence, then he gets struck! It puts the fear of God into the students, but that's the way it happens in the street, one second and you are dead! It's not a game or a sparring match!
But by putting on sparrign gear, doesn't this go against general kung fu philosophy?
Heck no! I do not want to be damaged! It is my job as the instructor to help the student to know what it is really like to be attacked with full force and with animal violence! Anyone who says that they 'fight'/spar' without protective grear is NOT doing Gung-fu as people would be killed! I want my students to strike me as hard as they can into deadly points on the nbeck loike ST 9 and St 10, SI 16, GB 3, CV 22, so I do not wish to be killed doing it! We are NOT sparring, I am simply attacking them as they would be in the street with absolute non stop violence! This is the only way for a student to know what it is like and how to react!
I teach my students to strike at the most deadly points, assassin points! I have many Police Officers and other LEO's studying my system so they have to have the most deadly methods as they often put their lives on the line etc. SO they have to have experience at firstly BEING attacked by a raving lunatic nad secondly what points to strike in order to save themselves.
As I said, one second and you are dead! It's not a game of fighting! So I try to make it as real as possible by totally intimidating the students (those who have come along way with me and who are advanced in their training). If they do not strike me with absolute force/intern power, fa-jing at onto points that would normally killme, then I keep on attacking until they do. You HAVE to know what it's like to be struck as half of being in a fight is the shock value of being struck. So if you have not been struck, never been knocked down, then you are in for a real awakening when, heaven forbid, you really have to defend yourself.
Well I do not really want to upset anyone as I have done enough of that in my life! I just wish for Taijiquan people in particular who often think that they can learn how to yeild to a force leawrna few forms and do some push hands and then go out in to the streets safe in the knowledge that they can!
I am not pushing my own cart etc., just telling it like it is in teh hope that it might help someone understand what they are learning. Taijiquan IS by far the most deadly fighting art ever invented. Baguazhang is also but not very many actually know how to use it for real!
The postures from any internal form are NOT the fighting art! They only teach us how to move the body in accordance with natural body rhythms and that of the attacker. It is the other 90% of what we learn in Taijiquan and BAguazhang that teaches us how to fight!
Would you please go to "Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung" section and find the "reptile brain" thread and read and post your views there? Thanks, it is much appreciated.
Anyone who says that they 'fight'/spar' without protective grear is NOT doing Gung-fu as people would be killed!
Obviously, I have to respectfully disagree with this statement.
I spar without protective gear. I practice Shaolinquan. I most certainly do Gongfu. So do my classmates. So does my Sifu. So did his Sifu. So did his Sifu's Sifu. And so on, back through the generations. Gongfu is much older than protective gear.
I agree that sparring without protective gear is incredibly dangerous. The reason my partner doesn't get hurt is because I control my techniques, and vice versa. For example, when I throw a Leopard Punch to my partner's throat, I don't make contact, but stop the punch an inch or so short. Similarly, if my partner gets through all my defenses, I trust that his punch will not penetrate the target. This is how Sifu trains us.
Landing my punch an inch from the target is "real" enough. I spend at least 30% of my time training force. I don't need to make contact with my partner to confirm the power in my strike. I am confident in my force. I know that I can apply my force whenever I choose.
Furthermore, this kind of sparring is in keeping with Shaolin philosophy. We train to be so much more skillful than our opponent that we can actually execute compassion in the middle of a life or death confrontation. Even when confronted by deadly force, we aim to respond with the least amount of force necessary to neutralize the situation.
We use many methods to train this ability. Of course, sparring training must be systematic in order to reach a point where you can spar safely using dangerous techniques like Leopards to the throat, Snakes to the eyes, and kicks to the groin. Our method was outlined in this thread, the 7th post: http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=104
Well I do not really want to upset anyone as I have done enough of that in my life!
No worries. As I said, you are most welcome here. If we can't find something to agree on, we'll just shake hands and agree to disagree. Deal?
SOme of my best friends I agree to disagree with! So you are welcome. However, maybe you didn't read the whole thing? The jist of was that students need to knoew what it's like to be struck and also more imporatntly to know what it' sliike to strike a human being, hence the proctecion for one person!
If you learn to 'pull your punches' that i what you wil do in a real situation! I have had personal experience of this.
Welcome to the forum! I am sure there will be many interesting debates. And the agreeing to disagree is fine.
We don't actually learn to pull our punches like I experienced in my previous MA training. More, we throw our "punches" with full speed and force only when our training partner is capable of responding correctly. Even then, if he/she doesn't respond correctly, we maintain the control to avoid hurting them unnecessarily. This is part of the training of skills we go through.
As far as learning to be struck, well a single strike can often be enough to kill someone so it is more important for us to avoid being struck even when attacked full speed and full force by an opponent. About learning / experiencing striking a human being - I'm not sure what use that is and would welcome your further information.
Based on your description, what you are witnessing is probably point sparring.
If that's the case, then I have to agree. Point sparring (where you actually pull your punches) doesn't work in real life. I also see some point sparrers get into fight and they lose badly because of the point you describe.
This is due to the fact that there is no force to back up their technique, only speed. This is just useless, IMO.
For the Taiji and Bagua arguments:
If I understand you correctly, are you saying that we can't use forms in these styles to fight ?
If it is, then I have to disagree. I am from another style of kungfu (Hsing-I), so I can't say on these two styles, but I can use the form that I learn in sparring. My Sifu and I play different scenario where I am fighting against strikers (boxing), kickers, wrestlers and such. He even train me on how to fight when your opponent is just plain crazy and attack continously.
Needless to say, I can use my form in fighting. I guess when it comes down to it, it just depends on whether or not you want to use the form in fighting.
"Franciskus, Open Your Chest" Sifu Wong (Intensive Kungfu Course 11/23 -11/29/04)
Thank you for your response.
I have a friend who is a very well known sifu of gung-fu. He is famous for his very fast punches like 10 per second! I asked hiim once to punch me using eight punches per second into my chest. It was like rain drops! He sacrificed power for speed and as he had never actually struck a human body, he was unaware that his punches were useless! Tha is why we must learn what it is like to actually punch someone and not just punch dummies or punching bags etc. And we must also learn to punch when under stress like when we are really attacked as what you can do in teh dojo goes out the window when in a real situation as we who have been know.
Anyone who says that he can never be stuck is kidding himself! Even an old friend o mine now deceased Wong Shun-leung the great wing chun master from HK told me once when I asked him if he had ever been hit that yes of course he had been, but because he had been struck, he could handle it when struck again. This is why we must have that experience. I am not advocating goijng out into the streets as I had to but rather have your own instructor attack you with force and occassionally hit you even knockin gyou down, this will hold you in good stead later.
Yes but you have to say what kind of fighting? if it is in the dawgwan (Dojo) then this is NOT real fighting! IN this case of course you have the time to think about your form and use it against you rtraining partners. However, in the street you cann ot use the form, you will certainly be defeated. It must happen sub-consciously like an animal. If you use Technique you will lose is what my main teacher once told me just before he knocked me out!
The forms are very important do not get me wrong! They are the foundation of all martial arts systems. However, they are NOT the fighting art, they are only the excellent tools that we use to learn about real self defence in life or death situations! They give us the tools we need in order to turn our MARTIAL ART into a self defence art. Many make the big mistake of thinking that just because they are learning a martial art, they will learn about self defence! This is in correct. You only USE the martial art to help you to learn about self defence. Your teacher must be able to show you how to do this, other wise you will only be doing a health art and not a self defence art.
He sacrificed power for speed and as he had never actually struck a human body, he was unaware that his punches were useless!
This may be true for some schools. In our school, force training is an extremely important and interated part of our training. I sincerely do not believe I have to strike someone to prove I have a powerful strike. I also hope I never come into a situation where I am required to strike someone full force.
Anyone who says that he can never be stuck is kidding himself!
I tend to agree. But I still don't understand how intentionally taking blows in training makes you better. Maybe it's just me?
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