I used Taijiquan against TKD in practice sparring!

[DarkCosmoz]

Unfortuantely, I don't have any pics or video, but today, I tried out a TKD club in my school and I "kind of" successfully used Taijiquan patterns against their kicks and punches. When I say kind of, I mean that I lost in point sparring based on their rules and regulation. However, I used the pattern "Fierce Dragon Across Stream" as the main stance against the TKD exponents. It came natural to me for whatever reason and like Sifu Wong said, it was rather difficult for the TKD opponents to land their kicks and punches on me. Whenever they kicked, I used Flying Diagonally backwards to avoid the kick... similar to Low Stance Single Whip, then I would retaliate with Ward Off or a punch. I remember being slightly out of breath, but then again, I have only been practicing for 4 months and my opponents were black belts or someone who has been practicng for 3 or more years.

It was also heartening to know that my other TKD classmates could easily distinguish my martial art style due mostly to my stances.

I love taijiquan.

Stephen

[joko]

Congratulation, Stephen.

Joko

[Alex McArdell]

Congratulations Stephen. I have been planning to test myself in a similar way in my local Kickboxing class. We are yet to arrange a time to do this but I am looking forward to it. If you plan to fight more TKD people, perhaps you could try and use the pattern 'Green Dragon Shoots Pearl' to counter their roundhouse kicks.
Alex.

[yeniseri]

great!

If you train it, then the rest is easier and the patterns will be easy to see.
god speed

[Andrew]

If that isn't a typical yeniseri reply

Well done Stephen.

Andrew

[drunken boxer]

Well done Stephen!

Are you planning on doing more of this sparring with them?

[DarkCosmoz]

Thanks everybody for your replies.

Alex:

. If you plan to fight more TKD people, perhaps you could try and use the pattern 'Green Dragon Shoots Pearl' to counter their roundhouse kicks.

I actually thought about using Brush Knee Twist Step on numerous occasions, but I think I would've been too slow to execute it. The way I learned to used the pattern was also to counter a punch followed by a kick so I am a little limited in my knowledge/skill.
My opponents also used front snap kicks numerously, in which I used White Crane Flaps Wings to counter, and side kicks in which I used what Wahnam calls Strike Tiger poise to avoid it. I remember also naturally using Repulse the Monkey. I had to make numerous changes in my style because of their rules in the ring. For example, no kicking below the waist, no grappling, etc. For example, when I used Repulse Monkey against a side kick and knocked the opponent off his feet, I was given a warning for not grappling,

Are you planning on doing more of this sparring with them?

Absolutely. I have to test my skill otherwise I would never know if what I'm learning is effective. Although our school's main focus is to take the opponent out in a few moves by using drastic techniques like eye rakes or shin stomps, I find that I can naturally adjust in a controlled sparring ring.

Last night's sparring left me with 2 jammed fingers... ouch. Going to practice Lifting the Sky to clear any injuries.

Kind regards,
Stephen

[Ray]

Dear Stephen,

Awesome.

^_^

[KungFuJoe]

Pretty cool Stephen,

Didn't you have gloves on?

I don't know about Green Dragon Shoots Pearl against a round kick. Do you mean block the kick with your forearm? Wouldn't that break your arm?

I like Golden Pheasant (tacking the kick with your knee just like a Thai Boxer), then try to throw them down with either Repulse Monkey or Like Sealed as if Closed.

[Alex McArdell]

Pretty cool Stephen,


I don't know about Green Dragon Shoots Pearl against a round kick. Do you mean block the kick with your forearm? Wouldn't that break your arm?

Hi Joe.
No it wouldn't break the arm. Somewhere on the forum is a description of my experience using this technique against roundhouse kicks. I can't find it right now but I think the technique is a favourite on the Warrior Project. The technique requires good timing and spacing and must be applied early on in the kick's movement before it builds momentum. From my own experience it's the palm strike on the chest that takes the force out of the kick, rather than the forearm. So the kick is significantly weakend by the time it touches your forearm.
Hope that clarifies things.
Regards
Alex

[Baguamonk1]

Thats great !! Especially for only 4 months.

Don't want to rain on your parade or anything but TKD exponents are probably the easiest to spar against and beat Within like 4 months of xingyi it was fairly easy to beat alot of my TKD friends....TKD is too dependent on point sparring and most of their kicks, even black belt level aren't as effective as they should be. Don't get me wrong I have met some SERIOUS korean TKD exponents who could seriously fight, but for the most part TKD has been heavily watered down.

Again don't mean to rain on parade, but it is still great for such limited time in training!!! Continue training, it will only get better.

Now go fight some MMA guys, I think you will find it very difficult I know I did, but it gave me a more dynamic perspective on IMA.

[DarkCosmoz]

No it wouldn't break the arm. Somewhere on the forum is a description of my experience using this technique against roundhouse kicks. I can't find it right now but I think the technique is a favourite on the Warrior Project. The technique requires good timing and spacing and must be applied early on in the kick's movement before it builds momentum. From my own experience it's the palm strike on the chest that takes the force out of the kick, rather than the forearm. So the kick is significantly weakend by the time it touches your forearm.
Hope that clarifies things.

Thanks Alex for the description. "Start later but arriver earlier."



Hey Baguamonk,

Don't want to rain on your parade or anything but TKD exponents are probably the easiest to spar against and beat Within like 4 months of xingyi it was fairly easy to beat alot of my TKD friends....TKD is too dependent on point sparring and most of their kicks, even black belt level aren't as effective as they should be. Don't get me wrong I have met some SERIOUS korean TKD exponents who could seriously fight, but for the most part TKD has been heavily watered down.

Yes that's what I heard too about TKD fighters. They are actually more limited by rules in the sparring ring than karate exponents.

A quick question for you... The xingyi techniques I learned usually counters punches and hand strikes in all forms. What patterns would you use in xingyi to counter kicks?

[joko]

I don't know about Green Dragon Shoots Pearl against a round kick. Do you mean block the kick with your forearm? Wouldn't that break your arm?

.

Hi Joe.
No it wouldn't break the arm.

Beware! Safety First!

It wouldn't break the arm, provided we use the pattern appropriately, e.g. by flowing with the attack and then deflecting the kick.
Not to use the 'brushing knee' fore-arm to block the kick frontally. This might break the arm, as the fore-arm is weaker than the attacking leg. You have to adjust the stances, using leg and body movements to do so.

An example: Suppose you are in Right bow-arrow stance, and the opponent attack with a sweeping kick using his left leg coming from your front-right side. If you block with your right fore-arm 'brushing knee' to the right, that is frontal block. This might break the arm.

You should adjust your stance; immediately change into Left Bow-Arrow stance, use the left hand 'brushing knee' to flow and deflect the kick to the left, while applying the 'Shooting Pearl' right hand palm to strike his back.

See the difference?
The sweeping kick from your right is directed to the left, at the same time your left fore-arm 'brushing knee' is also directed to the left, hence flowing with the attack and deflecting it.

How can you strike with the right hand palm to his back? By changing your stance and deflecting his left leg kick sweeping to the right (from his view), practically you will be positioned slightly at his front left back side.

(Right Bow-Arrow Stance means the right leg in front and the left leg in back. Left means the opposite, left leg in front).

"Are you planning on doing more of this sparring with them? "

Absolutely. I have to test my skill otherwise I would never know if what I'm learning is effective

Great! We know that free sparring is meant to test the combat skill, not to train combat.

[Alex McArdell]

green dragon clip

Here is a link to a clip of Sifu demonstrating the use of 'Green dragon shoots pearl' in the way that I was trying to describe.

http://shaolin.org/video-clips/taijiquan/muaythai04.html

Sifu shows the way it can be used safely and also highlights the dangers that Joko is pointing out.
This technique was shown to me my Siheng Darryl on a recent warrior project preperation weekend. Joko is quite right to point out the principle of safety first, as when I was learning the technique I at first had very sore forearms from doing the technique incorrectly. At that time I was going against Tai Chi principles and meeting force with force, hence the bruises. Yet with good instruction I was able to use 'Green Dragon' safetly as a strong counter to the roundhouse. But good timing and spacing is essential.
Now I've thought about it a little more, maybe it's not such a great idea to try and use this against a proper TKD fighter before being properly taught the technique by an instructor. I wouldn't want any sore arms on my conscience.
Regards.
Alex

[Baguamonk1]

Xingyi is not really about "patterns" or "techniques" as shaolin is. This is what alot of people dont understand about IMA. The actual techniques/patterns can vary alot, but they are there to condition your mind, and body a specific way so that you can apply the internal principles soundly without having to rely on a specific "pattern." For example, a huge deal for xingyi is explosiveness, moving forward, coordinated movement during explosiveness, retreating (countering) only to advance again. In the form retreating to advance again (to attack) is usually shown by a big step(Or half step) back, and then pulling/parrying of one hand, while the other hand attacks forward. In real life, it doesnt have to be like this, someone can throw a punch in which you just slightly shift your weight back so that it misses and weight is stored in your back leg, then you use that weight to push off of back leg, and transfer explosive power to your fist as you counter. It would look like a guy just barely dodged punch and jabbed/crossed the guy back....but its still xingyi.

There is a leg kick jam (kind of looks like san ti shi position, or pi chuan) which can be used to "jam" or even strike the leg of opponent (more of a slapping effect). Using gravity, waist, and sinking of body to simply "stop" a long distance front kick (or any other kick that comes straight). Pao chuan could be used against a high kick as you move forward. slip by the kick (with parrying arm)and move in for strike. Xingyi you never really "block" so much as provide an angle for deflection and let it go past you so that your opponent impales himself on your strike. Using the "stomp" kick often found in Dragon forms or techniques, also used by other CMA styles, is very effective. The difference is the technique in xingyi uses force from a slightly compressed stance the leg shoots out as the hip go up, forward, and down, so essentially the momentum of kick goes up forward and down all at once. Since down includes gravity, and sinking of body, (as clearly shown in exaggerated dragon posture) the kick can be very powerful. Albeit it will take alot of time to make it explosive and not telegraphed. This is good for kicking legs and if you are flexible, abdomens. You can use almost everything you want in xingyi to defeat a tkd opponent, that is really up to how you interpret the movements.

It is more about the way the energy, or physical force travels, and how you use your body without tension, to achieve that end. Lots of basic things in xingyi are sinking, compression, release, rising force, downwards force, forwards. twisting, spiraling (very small barely visible spirals), fajing, explosiveness, angles, deflection, stepping (similar to fencing), intention to lead movements/energy etc.. If you try to apply a "picture perfect" posture against a skilled opponent, using xingyi, you will probably fail. It is all about the internal aspects of art, not the outer ones. That is why Ichuan stemmed from xingyi, to make an art more about the internal aspects, since most people were failing to understand that about xingyi (partly thanks to xingyi's similarities to shaolin).

As for blocking an attack with taiji and not hurting yourself, it is very simple. It is not so much the technique that matters (agian...) but rather its principles. A good grasp of Peng and Lu is very much needed. Someone kicks the outer edge of forearm, use small (or for beginners big) circles to neutralize the physical force of it. Use Lu to know which way the force is going and simply "go with it" even if just a little bit to "deflect" the force. Use Peng so that your physical structure isn't breached, and you don't get hit by having weak "peng." Most of the time, like MT round kick, you are going to have to move your whole body and waist as well to neutralize force and move out of the way of another attack. So you are also going to have to coutner at same time. A basic example is someone throws strong round kick, (which moves in a half circle, moving towards you from side) and you are going to have to complete circle by grasping it while you simultaenously move towards him and away from kick (basic bagua too). Thus his own momentum from his kick will be used to counter however you want, you could throw him (wont do much damage), or move in towards him so he doesnt have time to counter. Whatever "technique" you wish to apply is yours to do. Or if you have good enough peng, lu etc. throughout your whole body, you could even take the kick to body (and legs if you know how to absorb force with legs) and absorb it like cotton does. Same with arms, so long as you don't straighten them out, or block with a weak part of arms, you should be able to absorb the force pretty easily. Kind of like "internal" iron shirt.

BTW that example your showing (the muythai/kick one) has been heavily criticized by kickboxers/muy thai exponents alike. Most of the "muy thai" shown to counter against is elementary, and in some cases wrong (like clinching work, and the pulling of head/angle).