What is genuine, traditional Taijiquan?

[Robin]

What is genuine, traditional Taijiquan?

Hello Yeniseri,

Before I post the conclusion to my series of posts I would like to thank you for contributions to this debate.

They have sparked many valuable contributions from my Sifu (indirectly), my Si-Heng's Anthony and Andrew and also some very good explanations from Kevin, though I am unsure as to whether you have taken them on board.

Earlier you said,

'All your points are excellent but I have nevr been graceful in any encounter and hope I will never be when confronted with street thugs because that is their modus operandi.'

I am sorry to hear you have "never been graceful in any ecounter" as this is actually a hallmark of 'Internal Kung-fu' particularly 'Wahnam Taijiquan'. It is also interesting to note that this does not just apply to combat, but to all aspects of life and is just one of the many benefits of practicing genuine,traditional Taijiquan. I am not talking fancifully but from actual expirience.

also

'All striking is physical. I rarely uses a fist because my hands are too soft but is my palm strike efficient? I have no idea.'

Only if you if you have no concept (or expirience) of internal force is this true.

Internal force is an essential part of genuine, traditional Taijiquan.

I honestly hope that you will read this next and concluding post with an open heart and mind, as I believe there is much to benefit from doing so.

[Robin]

Is Kaitain’s Taijiquan or Wahnam Taijiquan genuine, traditional Taijiquan?

I would like to conclude my series of posts with a summary of what has been discussed.

These posts are a response to Kaitain’s insinuation that Wahnam Taijiquan is not Taijiquan. To decide whether Kaitain’s Taijiquan or Wahnam Taijiquan is genuine, traditional Taijiquan, I proposed to list the features of genuine, traditional Taijiquan, and to compare Kaitain’s Taijiquan and Wahnam Taijiquan against these feaures.

To avoid going out of topic, we discussed the features under the following aspects:

1. Principles.
2. Form.
3. Force.
4. Application.
5. Benefits.


A fundamental principle of genuine, traditional Taijiquan is to turn the opponent’s momentum back to himself. This is accomplished by appropriate shen-fa, or body-movement.

Kaitain justifies his practice as Taijiquan although he admits that his forms are not Taijiquan forms, because he says he uses Taijiquan principles, and he mentions shen-fa, or body-movement, as an example. But the fact is that Kaitain does not use the body-movement of genuine, traditional Taijiquan; he uses the body-movement of Boxing.

Kaitain does not use body-movement to turn an opponent’s momentum agains himself. Instead, Kaitain uses force against force head-on. This is contrary to the principles of genuine, traditional Taijiquan.

In contrast, Wahnam Taijiquan pays much attention to utilizing body-movement to turn an opponent’s momentum against himself. When an opponent attacks, a Wahnam Taijiquan exponent first yields to his momentum, next deflects the momentum, and then redirect the momentum back to the opponent, all in one smooth movement. This is following the principles of genuine, traditional Taijiquan.

Kaitian uses Boxing and Wrestling forms in his version of Taijiquan. His justification that form is unimportant is basically flawed. While form is not everything in genuine, traditional Taijiquan, it is still important, and often it is by its outward form that an art, rightly or wrongly, is identified. Practicing Boxing or Wrestling forms but calling them Taijiquan is ridiculous. This is exactly what Kaitian does.

On the other hand, the forms practiced in Wahnam Taijiquan are unmistakably Taijiquan forms. Hence, regarding form, Wahnam Taijiquan is certainly closer to genuine, traditional Taijiquan than Kaitain’s Taijiquan.

Taijiquan is an internal art. Its force, therefore, is internal force, and not muscular strength. The onus of internal force training is chi.

Kaitain is ignorant of chi and internal force, as is evident in his many statements. He uses muscular strength, and his force training involves punching sandbags. On the other hand, Wahnam Taijiquan pays much attention to internal force. Our force training involves chi.

Kaitian does not believe that Taijiquan techniques are combat effective. Therefore he uses Boxing and Wrestling techniques in combat although he calls his art Taijiquan. In contrast, in Wahnam Taijiquan the techniques we use in combat are typically Taijiquan techniques, the same as those used by Taijiquan masters in the past. Hence, regarding combat application Wahnam Taijquan is closer to genuine, traditional Taijiquan than Kaitain’s Taijiquan.

Practicing genuine, traditional Taijiquan gives benefits like combat efficiency, good health, mental clarity and spiritual development.

Kaitain uses Boxing and Wrestling techniques, instead of Taijiquan techniques, for combat. Hence Kaitain’s Taijiquan is not combat effective. Kaitian emphasizes on muscular power in his training, which results in much blockage. Hence, Kaitain’s Taijiquan does not contribute to good health. Kaitain openly invites challenges, which does not speak well of mental clarity. Kaitain seems to be very proud to have injure his students in demonstration, which does not speak well of spiritual development. In short, Kaitain’s version of Taijiquan does not give the kind of benefits that genuine, traditional Taijiquan will give.

In contrast, Wahnam Taijiquan uses typical Taijiquan techniques for combat. Hence, Wahnam Taijiquan is combat effective. Wahnam Taijiquan emphasizes on chi flow and internal force, which contribute to good health. Wahnam Taijiquan practitioners assess Kaitain’s accusations calmly and respond after careful consideration, indicating mental clarity. Despite Kaitain’s rudeness and arrogance, Wahnam Taijiquan practitioners respond with patience and respect, indicating spiritual development.

Considering all these, is Kaitain Taijiquan or Wahnam Taijiquan genuine, traditional Taijiquan? I shall leave forum members to make their own verdict.

[Andrew]

Whilst I am not a Wahnam Taijiquan practitioner myself, I have had the privilege of training with a number of my Wahnam Taijiquan brothers. I have also learnt a lot from this thread.

Thanks to everyone who has made this thread so lively and informative. Particular thanks, though, to Sifu Robin who has shared so openly. His clear and concise writing has again supplied proof that Shaolin Wahnam training is more than just "Martial Arts" and that its members "walk the walk" and don't just "talk the talk".

Andrew

[Chiahua]

Question of history

Just a few question I had after checking out the excellent series of videos from the taijiquan intensive course. Great work! The following commentary accompanies the cloud hands video:

It is reputed that the great Taijiquan master, Yang Lu Chan, practiced “Grasping Sparrow’s Tail” thousands of times everyday. He was so skillful that he used only this pattern to defeat all challengers. But actually “Grasping Sparrow’s Tail” was formulated later by his grandson, and its fore-runner was probably “Cloud Hands”. Hence, it was probable that Yang Lu Chan practiced “Cloud Hands” everyday. “Cloud Hands” is not a pattern with fixed forms, it is a general term for a collection of flowing movements.

Maybe it's just a matter of nomenclature, but I was under the impression that Yang Lu-Chan's taijiquan came from the Chen Village. As such, they did have the grasping sparrows tail pattern (though it looks much different), as well as a version of cloud hands. However, as basic training, I thought that Chen Stylists practiced Silk Reeling Exercises before moving on to whole sets. I've seen some of the exercises and it looks quite a bit like how cloud hands is performed in Wahnam Taijiquan.
1) Is it likely that what Yang Lu Chan practiced were the Silk Reeling exercises, or are these drills a modern invention (given that you don't hear mention of them in the classics).
2) Does Wahnam Taijiquan draw at all from these Silk Reeling exercises as inspiration?

Respectfully,
Chia-Hua

[Robin]

Cloud hands

Hello Sunyata,

Thank you for your interesting questions,


'Maybe it's just a matter of nomenclature, but I was under the impression that Yang Lu-Chan's taijiquan came from the Chen Village. As such, they did have the grasping sparrows tail pattern (though it looks much different), as well as a version of cloud hands. However, as basic training, I thought that Chen Stylists practiced Silk Reeling Exercises before moving on to whole sets. I've seen some of the exercises and it looks quite a bit like how cloud hands is performed in Wahnam Taijiquan.
1) Is it likely that what Yang Lu Chan practiced were the Silk Reeling exercises, or are these drills a modern invention (given that you don't hear mention of them in the classics).
2) Does Wahnam Taijiquan draw at all from these Silk Reeling exercises as inspiration?'


To answer your fisrt question, it is possible that Yang Luchan practised silk reeling exercises or something similar to develop his tremendous internal force. Personally I beleive he would have performed 'cloud hands' many thousands of times while in a continuous chi flow.

Also, I dont beleive that 'silk reeling' is a modern invention, and from what I have seen it seems to give Chen style practitioners good results. Namely, internal spiral force, chi flow and a solid foundation upon which to build.

To answer your second question. I do not believe Wahnam Taijiquan's 'Cloud hands' draws directly upon 'Silk reeling ' for its inspiration, as Sifu has not learnt Chen style Taijiquan from a Chen style master. I beleive we in Wahnam practise 'cloud hands' the way we do as this is how Sifu honestly thinks Taijiquan was practised in the past. I must say that after practising this way for a couple of years I too honestly believe this is how masters' trained in the past.

Why? because in Wahnam Taijiquan we often have our own expiriences confirmed when we read the classic's of past masters'. The texts are no longer abstract of difficult to understand because we have felt many of the things mentioned, and for this we are very thankful.

My apolagies for the late reply, but I have been away for a couple of weeks.

Robin

[Pooh Bear]

Newbie reply

Hi everyone.

Now this is a late reply to this thread, but I am new to this forum and since I am interested in taijiquan I spend some time reading through this thread. I felt like a supervisor (not taking part, but making notes) while reading.
Before you read my post please mind that I don't want to be disrespectful. These are just my observations. Unfortunately I couldn't hesitate and added some opinion in my reply.

@Robin: I think the question of concern for you was: "Is Kaitain's taijiquan real taijiquan?" And I think I have to back him up a little. Sure it was not right of him to challenge your school with his posts. But it seems like you want to challenge and fight him which he declines. You make a mistake I think. Should the martial artist not avoid fights? A friendly encounter can all of a sudden become a real fight when people are watching, because no one wants to lose in front of an audience (how small it may be). So Kaitain is right when he wants no video or audience.

@yeniseri: Thank you for asking all of your questions. Did you notice that you got flamed nearly all of the time? And did you notice that you don't get flamed when you say that Wahnam Martial Arts are great or that you want to take part in a Wahnam class? (And before any of you guys start flaming me for this, simply reread this thread!)

@baguamonk1: I think you have a really good point. Applying taiji principles in everyday situations can be done. Unfortunately this does not make it taijiquan (as a martial art). But still using the most basic taiji principle: yin and yang (which is what taiji means after all) can be done in every situation.
Also the techniques Kaitain claimed to be doing with taiji principles are from another arsenal/set of techniques or martial art. So per se they cannot be taijiquan. But as I said above you CAN use taiji principles. But if Kaitain does this - who knows?
Another good point you raise is that of stances. It is important to have a good rooting when applying force. Now not surprisingly gong-bu is a quite stable forward stance. When martial styles were created or evolved (just as the reader likes) certain stances and techniques showed to be useful. So they sticked and were refined. Gong-bu is nearly the same in several martial arts, whether you have it high or low depends on style. But what is important is weight distrbiution+hip+waist. An experienced martial artist will simply use the stances he has internalized over time. And in a fast fight these stances will vary in heighth and lenght, but weight distrbiution+hip+waist will be nearly equal. So that the old teacher you mentioned did no visible adjustments but in fact he changed the whole stance.

The whole thread had some very good information in it, but I think the question still is not answered.

So now: What is genuine, traditional Taijiquan?
My contribution: A martial art that relies on internal force, applies the principle of yin and yang and uses the 13 core principles of taijiquan in it's varying techniques.

[joko]

Hello, Pooh Bear.

Thanks for your comments and your observation.

I enjoyed reading your post here, and the other as well, the one about The Ten Shaolin Laws. I agree with some points you made and disagree with some others, which I have not elaborated here yet.

Could you please reveal your name or nick name, or would you prefer to be addressed with your user name?

Joko

[yeniseri]

real false reality; a blessing

Pooh Bear,

It doesn't matter in the long run. You must have some real good secret training because no one saw what you saw. Alot of taijiquan training is like that, if you blink you miss it so thank you. It is not secret but people cannot tell so good luck to you.

Genuine taijiquan goes further than taijiquan training in itself. The nobility of the people (students) says a lot more than performing terrific moves. It speaks to the teachers and their teachers.
Specifically, genuine taijiquan practice consists of these basics.
you must build gong before anything else. lian gong are basic exercise like e.g. chanssujin that keeps the form alive. This can be gotten from zhanzhuang, taijizhuang and individual posture training. It may be considered as one but separated as levels of training. For example.
1 Zhanzhuang
2. Taijizhaung
3. Chanssujin
4. Individual posture training
5. Weapons (at least staff) but not necessary. personal choice
6. Form

[Antonius]

Did you notice that you got flamed nearly all of the time? And did you notice that you don't get flamed when you say that Wahnam Martial Arts are great or that you want to take part in a Wahnam class?

Mr. Pooh Bear, would you care to show us examples of this so-called flaming?

[Tapio Raevaara]

Hello Pooh Bear, welcome to our forum!

@yeniseri: Thank you for asking all of your questions. Did you notice that you got flamed nearly all of the time? And did you notice that you don't get flamed when you say that Wahnam Martial Arts are great or that you want to take part in a Wahnam class? (And before any of you guys start flaming me for this, simply reread this thread!)

Unfortunately I am unable to tell whether I'm flaming you or not. I reread the thread and saw nothing I'd call flaming - perhaps I don't recognize flaming when I see it.

I'd really appreciate if you could point out the part(s) of the discussion you interpreted as flaming, for I only saw clarifications and corrections necessitated by - to put it bluntly - Yeniseri's weird (and even potentially harmful) statements - along with some expressions of astonishment and utter disbelief.

[Tapio Raevaara]

Oops, it seems Sihing Anthony beat me to it. Well, he's practiced longer, he's supposed to be faster than me.

[yeniseri]

self expression;

Mr Taapio,

Can I utter disbelief and astonishments like everybody else or does I have to be approved by the Administration. If so, let me know what I can say or cannot say? Let me know who can utter bilief and astonishments and who cannot and I will try to abide by those rules.

thanks for your kindness

[Tapio Raevaara]

Dear Yeniseri,

Are you serious? It's really not my place to dictate what is allowed here and what is not. But if you abide the forum rules and regulations and remain respectful, I believe you can say basically anything. To clarify what I meant by "expressions of astonishment and utter disbelief" - and I wasn't completely serious, as indicated by my use of a smiley - here's a link to an example of such a comment. (My apologies, Sihing Andrew, if I interpreted you post incorrectly. )

[yeniseri]

I am amazed

Dear Taapio,

I saw nothing wrong with the linked statement!

[Baguamonk1]

I thought this topic was dead, and that is why I did not reply to any of my previous posts or replies. I think I am done debating, it is useless, no person will view things that are so vast the same anyways.

I did not mean to answer for Kaitan, I just used his words, and others words to get a point across (my own). So I apologize for that.

As many of you have said, it is my opinion that most of Taiji out there is "dance" and even high level masters aren't competent in the art of fighting. Good at taiji, forms, and push hands? Sure, good at applications? Perhaps. But fighting is something much different, and I find the practice of alive application limited and just not present. The excuse of "too deadly" is just that, an excuse, because many who use those excuses aren't qualified to say so...Any art can be lethal, there have been boxers that have been killed even THROUGH the boxing gloves. Ground grappling can break body parts and dislocate necks just as standing CMA grappling can (and backs if anyone has seen that horrid BJJ black belt clip), but that is the difference between professionalism and amateurs.The best professional fighters are the ones who stay relaxed, and control breathing when they are losing (no matter what professional sport you are talking about). Some come out on top some don't.

I personally think Taiji needs to evolve, not just taiji, but CMA in general. There is GREAT stuff to be found in the core teachings of all CMA. The problem is that over the years, thankfully to the cultural revolution, banning of kung fu practice, politics, etc. crystalization of forms, and "techniques" as a gospel law has isolated the practice to within its own circles. I am a constant believer that all of these things can help both in real situations, and competitive full contact situations. I think its only a matter of time before that happens, as alot of us are getting fed up with CMA's reputation. Even though it DOES NOT matter, it would still be "great" if the glory gong fu once had could be restored, even if just a little bit.

And yes, an internal strike, is still in some-way shape or form a "physical" form of striking. Even when you use this kind of striking some muscles are still working. This does not mean that you are "flexing" and then striking like untrained fighters do...It just means that muscle, tendons, ligaments are attached to the bones and some stretch and contract naturally while striking (not in a hindering sense). The connective tissue at the joints for example is almost crucial and necessary for any form of striking (including IMA). The difference is you are relaxed, and intention leads the force inwards instead of "splashing" on the outside. But at the highest levels...both are JUST as effective IMO. In fact alot of IMA makes use of muscles, perhaps more obscure and less used muscles. Usually by the opening and closing, compressing and releasing of the said muscles.

Anyways I am going to tone down posting and post in a more friendly manner when I do. No use in internet arguing (which is why I'm gone for long periods of time). Keep up the good work and keep training My skeptisism and views are just there SIMPLY to give a different perspective, sometimes if you are not direct (and sometimes rude) then people will not listen. I am content that people have listened and formed constructive replies/criticism, that means that at least some of my points have reached across.

Pooh bear I agree with you on what you said about stances. Gong bu is indeed a VERY powerful stance, as a beginner in taiji, I used it to topple nearly everyone I knew (who did not practice taiji) that I played around with. Mostly because of its powerful rooting and superior leverage. Another point is that stances don't have to be picture "perfect." Once someone realises advantages, amount of leverage, alignment, etc. of stances then one can do "without them" in a sense and apply the same advantages,leverage, alignment etc. without the exaggerated posture..If you know what I mean. It is the same way that Chen Fake exaggered the Chen forms so that the spirals, and movements were more visible and easier to grasp. The same goes to form practice to me, since I don't care for public performances or winning tournaments on form practice, I do not always care so much for "perfect" postural practice SO long as my alignment, body mechanics, and leverage is correct. It is just that I know some people, in CMA mcdojos (as I call them) who translate the stances and principles SO literally that it actually becomes very easy to defeat them.

Also as to what some people have said about "boxing" and "muscular" training, there is nothing wrong with balancing things out with muscular training. SO LONG as it does NOT get in the way of your IMA training, when you are training IMA, then that is fine. But I am a firm believer that you use what you got in a real fight. If you can use muscle to end the fight quickly and at the opportune moment, then that is fine. Perhaps not in class practice, but in a real situation anything goes, so long as you dont simply "Revert" to using muscle because it is easier..Especially if you are young, why neglect your youth and natural physical abilities?? It is my opinion that you should combine and adhere to the principles (of IMA) ACCORDING to your physical state, and who you are, not the other way around. If you see no use in Iron Shirt training, why do it? Others will for different purposes. Taiji's HIGHEST level is not always using "soft" to defeat the "hard," that is high level though. But rather being able to transform the two energies, blend them, or use each one in perfect accordance to the situation. All I was trying to say about "boxing" was that if you were to use IMA body mechanics to strike in certain ways quickly and decisvely in a real situation, it might not look too different from your typical fight. The difference is in the subtleties. There is nothing wrong with "bouncing" footwork so long as it is trained and for a purpose. It takes even more skill to launch ROOTED strikes at the moment you land, etc. Now an untrained fighter bouncing around for the hell of it..that is easy to take advantage of.

But I agree, as I just recently saw a Zhabao taiji clip in which the taiji guys train in "striking." But they weren't using ANY of taiji to strike...the coach was literally giving them BOXING methods to train their stand up game, no use of IMA movement or body mechanics or anything. This I also object to and see what you mean in that he is training "boxing" to achieve striking.