Phoenix Eye

[KungFuJoe]

Hello,

I've noticed in my practice and reading that TCC tends to favour making a pheonix eye fist with the index finger of the punching hand. In many Shaolin styles that I've seen, the preference seems to be to use the middle finger.

I'm interested in what other people have found in their practice, or why one might be different or better than the other. How do you do the pheonix eye in WahNam Tai Chi Chuan?

Thanks,

Joe

[Antonius]

Hi Joe,

The fist you described, with the middle knuckle raised, is often called an Elephant Fist.

It's interesting that you think the Elephant Fist is more common in Shaolinquan than the Phoenix Fist. I feel that the opposite is true. In fact, there are entire Shaolin styles dedicated to the Phoenix Fist. I don't think the same is true of the Elephant Fist.

I don't know how the Phoneix Fist fits into Wahnam Taijiquan, but it certainly has a place in our Shaolinquan. Actually, it's one of my favorite hand patterns. On the other hand (no pun intended ), I never use the Elephant Fist.

Best,

[DarkCosmoz]

Hey Joe,

In many Shaolin styles that I've seen, the preference seems to be to use the middle finger.

I am not sure about Shaolin, but I know some styles of Karate seem to use the Elephant Fist a lot.

In the Xingyiquan style I practice, the Phoenix Fist is used in the Zhuan, or Drilling Fist. I also think that in the Wudang Taijiquan set, phoenix fists are used.

[KungFuJoe]

Thanks Anthony,

I guess it was just a misconception on my part. Sifu Wong had diagrams of the hand forms in his "Art of Shaolin Kung-Fu", but I unfortunatey loaned it away years ago and never got it back. The people that I knew before seemed to do it with the middle finger, and called it a pheonix eye. But looking around the web for a minute, most people seem to use the index finger like you say.

I guess that Pak Mei, Jow Gar, and the other styles famous for pheonix eye all use the index finger?

I personally thought that the middle finger would give a bit more power. Why don't you like using it Anthony? Do you find the index finger more powerful?

I don't know about Wudang Tai Chi Chuan DarkCosmoz. In the Yang styles, it's definately used extensively, but not obviously in the modern Deng Fu form. I've never seen it in Chen style, but I don't know anyone who practices traditional Chen, so I've never seen the old form close up.

The WahNam Tai Chi Chuan community might find the pheonix eye interesting then.

[Antonius]

I personally thought that the middle finger would give a bit more power. Why don't you like using it Anthony? Do you find the index finger more powerful?

Yes, I find the index finger to be more stable physically, and I also find it easier to channel force to this finger. The middle knuckle was something we used in Karate, but I wasn't particularly comfortable with it. The Phoenix Fist just feels more natural to me.

I guess that Pak Mei, Jow Gar, and the other styles famous for pheonix eye all use the index finger?

Yes.

[Mark Blohm]

Yes, I find the index finger to be more stable physically, and I also find it easier to channel force to this finger. The middle knuckle was something we used in Karate, but I wasn't particularly comfortable with it. The Phoenix Fist just feels more natural to me.

I've practiced neither the Phoenix Eye Fist nor the Elephant Fist, but trying both after reading this thread I find that the Elephant Fist seems quite comfortable and the Phoenix Eye Fist feels awkward and unstable.

Mark

[Andrew]

I used to prefer elephant fist. It is quite a powerful hand form when used with external force. The Phoenix Eye Fist is now my preference. It is much more powerful when powered by internal force.

Andrew

[KungFuJoe]

I bet I picked it up from some Karate folks coming through the kwoon years ago, and it just sort of stuck.

Mblohm,

It may be due to where you are putting your thumb. There are different ways of doing it. I've been experimenting and I find having the thumb up top is the best, so that by pressing down I stabilize the index finger. Keeping the thumb at the side like in a normal fist seems less stable.

Thanks Anthony and Andrew,

Is there a specific way to train a powerful pheonix eye fist? Perhaps it is the one finger zen training that leads to a preference for the index finger.

[Andrew]

It is best to stabilise the finger with internal force. I have never actually considered why my preference changed.

Andrew

[Joshua]

Phoenix Eye

I've practiced neither the Phoenix Eye Fist nor the Elephant Fist, but trying both after reading this thread I find that the Elephant Fist seems quite comfortable and the Phoenix Eye Fist feels awkward and unstable.

Mark

Hello Mark,

All new tools can feel awkward and unstable. For the Phoenix Eye Fist there seems to be two major ways to form the fist:

1a) Form a regular fist;
1b) Use the side of the thumb to push out and support the index finger.

2a) Form the One Finger Zen "fist";
2b) Curl the fingers into a fist without moving the thumb.
2c) Allow the index finger to rest against the top of the last thumb metacarpal.

A useful method of testing the basic structure of the fist is to place your Phoenix Eye Fist (one at a time to begin with as most people will form each one differently based upon their dominant side) against a wall and GENTLY/GRADUALLY support your bodyweight with the Phoenix Eye Fist. This will let you test your structural integrity.

Once you have found your "shape", then use the fist on a heavy bag. GRADUALLY increase the amount of force used. Experiment with different striking angles - some are less effective than others.

My Baguazhang teacher emphasizes the second method of forming the fist. Sifu Cheong Cheng Leong (of Phoenix Eye Fist fame) also uses the latter so, for me, this is the way to go.

Good luck with your training!

Joshua Craig

[Jeffrey Segal]

Anatomy

Hi Joshua,

Just for clarity, in 2c) above, did you mean distal phalanx of the thumb where you wrote last metacarpal? (I think there is only one 1st metacarpal, proximal to the 1st metacarpophalangeal joint)

Best,

[Joshua]

Thumb Position

Hello Jeffrey,

Yes, I did mean the Thumb Distal Phalanx.

Thank you for clarifying!

Joshua Craig

[Antonius]

Well look who it is! How the heck are you, Joshua? Long time no see.

Have you met Sifu Cheong Cheng Leong? I have only read his book, but I know that Sifu is friends with him.

[Joshua]

Hey Anthony!

Yes, it has been a long time!

If you are ever back up in NYC let's go out to eat...

I have not met Sifu Cheong Cheng Leong, though his first book was the reason I became interested in the Chinese arts...hardcore Japanese before that!

I have not been on the forum since it's first incarnation...my account was deleted, though the old posts are on here somewhere.

As I am only active with the Wahnam Qigong methods, I tend to keep a low profile on the martial arts side of things...there are a lot of dedicated Wahnam Shaolin and Taijiquan instructors to point the way.

Send me an e-mail offline and let me know how things are going down in Florida. I just returned from a 20-day house building project for Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming and am pooped.

Speak with you soon,

Joshua

[Mark Blohm]

My new favorite hand form

After attending the recent Warrior Project in Canada, I've found that the Phoenix Eye Fist is the best for promoting a powerful and focused flow of internal force in my arms.

To define powerful: On the final day during dinner(excellent food by the way ) it felt like two small rivers were flowing through my arms. Pretty cool



Mark