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Very interesting discussion going on. Much of it, though, is coming down to:
"I can't do it so it's not possible, the majority does it my way so your way is wrong, I don't believe in it so it doesn't exist and I don't do it so it's not right."
Very interesting discussion going on. Much of it, though, is coming down to:
"I can't do it so it's not possible, the majority does it my way so your way is wrong, I don't believe in it so it doesn't exist and I don't do it so it's not right."
"Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."
Now I know Robin trained with a DD school previously, and therefore was exposed to comprehensive footwork and sparring drills - why was that not mentioned. Perhaps Robin could share why he left that school? I'd also be interested to know how many styles Robin has trained in, and the names of those teachers. At 23, it seems unlikely that he is coming from a position of authority (not because of his youth, but because of the possible time spent training).
I am not really sure why I left a school is relevant, for instance why did you stop practicing Karate? or why did you leave your Mauy Thai school? I would think it was for the same reason as me, because I wanted to move on and look for something else. I cant see anything strange with that. I would imagine it is the same reason anyone else would move to a different school, they want to grow and develop and find something that suits them better. I would like to mention that I am extremely grateful for the tuition I received at Practical Tai Chi Chuan (Brighton) and to thank Sifu Ian Kendall, whom I still keep in regular contact with.
How many styles have I trained in and the names of the teachers. This seems to be of great importance to you, and I would say until about two years ago it was very important to me also, but not so much anymore. In fact this reminds me of a funny story. The first time I met Sifu I recounted the teachers I had trained with and their direct lineages (which I thought was very impressive) He appeared not to be impressed and I repeated my statement to the same avail. I thought this was quite strange but as the week and the training progressed the vast holes in my martial ability and fundamental understanding of Tai Chi Chuan were exposed. I began to realise that lineages and names were not really very important. But please don’t think that this means I disregard my previous training or disrespect my past teachers, actually feel indebted to all the teachers that I have met and that have generously taught me.
Anyway, here is my training experience.
After watching Shaolin Temple (oldies are the goodies) a friend and I decided we would travel to China and train with the 'Shaolin Monks' and become invincible fighters and learn beautiful forms, this makes me laugh even now as I am typing it. It was a very romantic idea and I am sure a common one. I got the money together and went over to China and began training with 'Wushu Monks' in Ji Lin province (I think the website is www.shaolins.com). I very much enjoyed the training and gained some flexibility from it. However I snapped my collarbone over there and had to carry my bags back, the state of my bone when I got back was not pretty.
When I returned home I checked out the local schools and got the money together to return. On my second visit to China and the Wushu academy I started taking more of an interest in the Tai Chi Chuan and Baji Chuan that was taught there by Sifu Long (who was around 70 years of age), who was said to have previously been a bodyguard for the Communist government. There were many stories about him, but it was quite clear that he was a seasoned martial artist with internal force and deep knowledge of application. He had also mastered 'Red Sun Palm' and I would ADD that when he gripped a limb it would be incredibly painful. On this 2 month visit I became much more interested in internal martial arts and less so in Wushu.
I returned home to earn cash so as I may spend one year in China studying Internal martial arts to search for a Master. I returned to the Wushu academy to Study Tai Chi Chaun and Baji Chaun from Sifu Long and Sifu Lin (Long sifu's disciple) I must say I do not know the lineages of these two masters but I would say that they could use the Kung Fu for combat and had done on many occasions. You may be able to check the lineage thought the website. After a couple of months for various reasons a myself and a friend called James left the academy in search of more Internal arts teachers and a more suitable place of study.
We were extremely lucky as we met two Wu style Tai Chi Chaun Masters, Hao Hui Mu and Chen Huiliang. Both were inner chamber disciples of the late Grandmaster Wu Tunan, who in turn was an inner chamber disciple of Wu Chien Chuan and Yang Shao Ho. I will refer to Sifu Hao Hui Mu here as Hao Loa Sher as this was how he like to be addressed when I was under his tutelage, actually many teachers in the mainland of China prefer to be called teacher and not Sifu.
Hao Lao Sher works for the Chinese Wushu Association and International Wushu Federation (I still keep in touch) and had travelled to every province of China with his work. He suggested that James and I travel to Nan Chan province (or city) to study with Master Wang Yam Ping (I am not sure of spelling) of Hunyuan Gung whom I believe studied with the creator of I-Chuan. We did so and the experience revived my faith in the internal arts. The students at this academy (Hunyuan gung) had incredible golden bell and striking skills, which they would happily demonstrate. This incredible internal force was developed through 8 hours of 3 circle stance a day, with breaks of course, I also met many students there whom had overcome degenerative diseases through their training.
After a month I found this training slightly too intense for my young mind and so returned to Beijing to study Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan with Hao Lao Sher, whom generously agreed to teach me. While waiting for Hao Lao Sher to return from a business trip I visited Han Dan province to see Sifu Yang Lu-Chan’s house. It was a fabulous trip and I was lucky to push hands with a distant relative of the family who looked after the house and with other local teachers in the area, whom defeated me very easily. When I returned to Beijing I lived with Martial Arts Associate Professor Zhang Xu Guang of the University of International Business and Economics, where he is vice secretary-General of History and theory of Chinese Wushu. Although Zhang Lao sher was not a formal teacher of mine I cannot convey how much I benefited from his knowledge while living with him and his kind wife. Zhang Lao Sher had studied under many lineage holders in Tai Chi Chuan, although I am fairly sure he has studied with some Chen family members Yang Zhen-Duo of the Yang family is the only name I can remember at present. Also I should point out that foremost Zhang Lao Sher is a Hsin-yi master, and from crossing hands with him it was evident that he had very impressive internal force. After spending a year in China I returned to England.
From when I returned to England I think you are aware of where I trained. With Sifu Ian Kendall of Practical Tai Chi Chuan, I was really impressed with the training and surprised to find it so close to home! I also trained with my good friend and Kung Fu brother Ronan, who taught me a great deal and who was a big influence on why I chose to continue my search for high level internal arts with Sifu Wong. I travelled to Malaysia and underwent a 5-day Intensive course with Sifu and have not looked for another master since.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this trip though memory lane, and hope that it may benefit others in some way.
Antidote cracks me up. Little kids to edgar allen poe.. Maybe he just doesn't understand how Kaitan tried to explain the concept of chi and how it relates to the rest of the body. Maybe to him "Chi" to describe everything is enough.If he was really as advanced as he says he is, why doesn't he make more in-depth comments than. "Hahah, you don't believe in chi, amateur," even though Kaitan never specifically said he didn't believe in it...
And it is very difficult to find people "sparring" adeqeutley with taiji, this I agree. If I ever manage to film it, I will post it here. But more than likely, "sparring" with taiji, or any other CMA, is not going to look like CMA forms once you realize that relying solely on pre-conceived notions of what "cma fighting" is, is not a good idea. Most people simply don't understand what taiji is, or how to apply it. And it will take a lifetime to truly achieve much with it. Even so called masters neglect everything there is to fighting, and concentrate way too much on form practice and push hands. They become so good at push hands, that their concept of fighting becomes distorted. The better you become, the more you have to lose (lose face) through actual fighting, so it is rare you will ever see a master "fight." Then when it happens, it looks like Macau...Its up to upcoming generaions, and us, to change this. But it happens everywhere, "masters" are still worshiped and their words are end-all be all solutions to everything. Within one year of IMA i learned most of this, and it just continues to change (the perception). We would all love to believe in mystical stories as law, and as an inspiration. But the reality is not as pretty or perfect. Results are achieved through hardwork, practice, and analyzing. But if your perception of IMA never changes..and it stays the same, then you will never evolve...
For example, taiji is about reacting only to as much force as is given. If someone pushes your chest, you don't over-turn or under-turn, you turn just enough so its like he's grasping air. Yet people expect to apply applications to something generic, like a punch or a push..but in real life, its spontaenous! There is no way to know how much force is in the punch/push and to plan ahead what you are going to do. It has to be completely natural, and sometimes being completely natural might not even look like Taiji! Why? Because the guy isn't giving you anything to work with, to apply lets say, "Part the horses mane." Which is why high level taiji guys seem to be able to topple people without barely any movement..because they don't have to. Its ok to punch and kick in there, so long as you maintain balance and rooting when excecuting. That also means every part of your body is completely sensitive to your opponents. It is a misconception that taiji is about throwing, there are plenty of kicks/punches/shoulder rams/elbows/foot stomps/throws, etc.
IMA in general is dying, there are the hippies, the kids who think its ultimate, the real fighters who don't give it the time of day because of its reputation, or its "appearance," the lack of people who truly understand IMA. Not as some outer practice that you practice every day, and hopefully become a better fighter. But as a core idea, a spiritual core (if you wish to call it), no words, no technique, no method is enough to simply identify IMA. This is why Ichuan was created, because even so called IMA's are getting to be static in the practice of forms and even push hands. All the natural fighters are flocking to MMA, such as MT,BJJ, boxing. And many of the un-athletic, inexerpeinced fighters flock to CMA arts. Of course this isn't fact or anything, but is true in alot of places. Rarely comes along somebody with the experience, intelligence, and athletisism to truly make such things work in a spontaenous situation. I truly believe Bruce Lee was one of the last. I hear traditionalists critique him because he didn't stay in Wing Chung longer to uncover its "D3@dly secrets" but that is why I think he is so brilliant. The core is enough, everything that is advandced comes directly from the core foundation of art. And of course you can read his ideas to see what I mean.
Anyways, good discussion. If it works for you, it works for you.
Well look, I don't know if this is going to make any sense, but it just occurred to me:
For example, taiji is about reacting only to as much force as is given.
Which is why high level taiji guys seem to be able to topple people without barely any movement..because they don't have to.
Now this is quite a "spiritual" act in itself. To have someone perpetrate violence on you and you respond in a compassionate way. Not taking his violence and multiplying it by the slights and irritations done to you in your life - but allowing it to stay as it is without hurting you or them back. Now that seems to be an entirely spiritual process that has to start in the mind. Ok, you may need body mechanics to accomplish it in a fight, or other approaches when a highly disturbed patient verbally attacks you and other vulnerable patients in a therapy group in a mental hospital. Something is done but the attitude, and ability to maintain it under pressure, is where it starts from. The stillness to "see" what is going on rather than just blindly reacting.
Yes, stillness is where fullness originates from. Movement, spontaneity comes form this. Without this stilness, I think CMA in general is pretty redundant. Because through stilness one is able to take appropiate action, in a natural and calm way. The difference, is in some Shaolin styles, "internal" means keeping a calm mind/inside but maintaining sturdiness on the outside, while IMA is more about maintaining softness/supleness (that does not mean weak) on the outside, but inside the intent/intensity/energies are fully aware and alive. Instead of localizing the chi to specific parts of the body, organs, or places (such as dan tien or head), it is supposed to be connected everywhere and flowing at all times. So that jing can be applied to any part of the body, instantaenously without thought or effort. Peng jin is active at all times, etc. etc.
But compassionate acts I agree, are the highest level of Internal arts. That does not mean it is viable, for us, with little to no war/violence/fighting experience to embrace it from the get go. If you plan and are sure you will not encounter such things, then you will be fine. But you never know...There is a saying in CMA "To be merciful to your opponent is to be cruel to yourself." That does not mean kill the guy, but when someone crosses the boundries, sometimes taking action first, or "teaching someone a lesson" is one of the only ways to end it. There are MANY people out there, that if you don't knock out, or seriously injure, they won't stop. The smarter people will stop at you easily handling them in a compassionate manner. But the stubborn wont', add that to weapons such as knives, or someone drugged up/drunk and you've got serious threats. The whole "wave your hand" thing in akido, or that "chi will save you" notion is not a realistic one. You must do what it takes, learn to have balance between yin (passiveness), and yang (aggressiveness), it is not just about being passive and peaceful. You should have enough control to take it as far as it has to go, instead of over-applying intent or technique to make sure the job is done. That is what experience is for.
O sensei for example experienced much violence and conflict in his time before he reached old age, and approached the "peaceful" method. Many of us have the same way to go, because only through understanding the ugly, the violent, and conflict can we truly understand the importance of passiveness. And even in passiveness there is yang, for example in taiji when you Lu, your peng is still there....When you handle someone who is dangerous, your focus and intent has to be as stern as it would be if you were trying to kill the guy, but controlled. Always a balance of both.
For example, taiji is about reacting only to as much force as is given.
This is one of the reasons we start our pushing hands training without moving our bodies. We call the exercise sensing and it’s all about learning to listen to the force of your training partner. If you get in the habit of making full body movements no matter how your partner pushes, you miss out on gaining an understanding of many things, including the three basic times for countering.
As our students become better at sensing, the speed, depth and direction of the push is varied, allowing them to learn how much, when and in which direction they need to sink back in their stance and/or turn at the waist. We place great importance on connection between upper and lower as well as fluid weight transferal, both when remaining in a stance and when moving from one stance to another. Personally, I find the (solo) practice of Cloud Hands very useful for this, especially when I train Cloud Hands in Bow Arrow stance.
Back to Pushing Hands I suggest that you have a closer look at our training methods. I honestly think you’ll find that there is more here than you seem to believe. What I briefly described above is only the very first stage in a systematic methodology that enables students to make the connection between solo practice and sparring.
Now, before I get down to a full day of study, I just want to say that I find the disrespect that you and Sifu Paul have been showing for Sifu Wong to be most unbecoming. You think you know so much about him and us, yet your own words (here and on other forums) reveal that in fact, you have no idea who Sifu Wong is. If you took the time to have a good read through Sifu Wong’s website, you’d realise that at the very least, he is a genuine master of the highest integrity who is worthy of respect, especially here on the official forum of his school.
I guess you’ll both insist that you haven’t been disrespecting Sifu and that you’re just being matter of fact and honest in stating your opinions. Please, just for a moment, drop all the pretence and have a look at yourselves. Taijiquan is a martial art, that’s for sure. It is, however, also spiritual cultivation. Earlier on I said that Zhan Zhuang is the second thing we teach our students. As long as you’re missing the first thing (we call it entering Tao, what do you call it?) it will be difficult for me to believe that you are training Taijiquan.
Here is another of my favourite passages, this time from the Five Characters Formula by Li Yi Yu.
Five, it is called spirit focused. All the preparation for the earlier four points can be summarized as spirit focused. When spirit, or Shen is focused, energy or chi can be concentrated and cultivated; cultivation of energy can, in return, nourish spirit.
All the natural fighters are flocking to MMA, such as MT,BJJ, boxing. And many of the un-athletic, inexerpeinced fighters flock to CMA arts. Of course this isn't fact or anything, but is true in alot of places.
Atleast we agree on something
Our genuine aim in Shaolin Wahnam is to spread the arts so that they aren't lost for future generations, including Taijiquan. We obviously have very different opinions on what good Taijjiquan or internal martial arts should look like both in form and application. You've seen what I think is quality Taijiquan, but untill you can show us some clips of what you think is quality IMA then your words are just words and I can't paint a clear picture of what you're talking about. I can guess but I'm probably wrong.
Hmm..Yep, that's all I'm gonna say now coz it's late, I just finished work and I'm gonna hit the sack like a bowling ball off a sky scraper!
Best wishes
Ronan
"A single light can eliminate the darkness of millennia; a single piece of wisdom can dispel the ignorance of a million years. Do not worry about your past, always think of your future, and for your future always think good thoughts"
No disrespect intended, as I have stated Wong seems like a very nice, charismatic man, he clearly wants to help people. Spiritual cultivation is a very strong part of any Internal art. True story, my mother new some Korean missioneraries when I was young, and they taught free meditation and chi gong. Anyways one day they decided they were going to teach us "tai chi." I didn't know it then, but it was a series of chi gong sets, and a couple wave hand techniques, and static postures. Purely for health purposes. Obviously you guys train for martial purposes too, and thats cool. Anyways these guys helped my mom recover from cancerous tumor in the stomach through this sort of energy work. We all have different preferences, personally I just don't agree with this being "taiji." But if to you guys, it follows all the principles, and is a martial art, then great. No damage done. So long as it means something to you, and it helps you in whatever ways possible, then continue. IMA is an evolutionary process, no one goes down the same path, no one is built to do the art exactly the same as someone else.
Maxime - you're still missing my point Read it again - I havent dismissed prayer's importance to Ueshiba. I've said that without his martial training, he could never have developed Aikido - that doesnt mean or imply the statement "prayer had nothing to do with it's development". Please read all the to and fro statements you and I have made from the start. It's gone so far off the original discussion, which was related to gaining mastery of XingYi in a day.
Robin - thanks for the history, it sounds like you've followed an interesting path. Im jealous that you got to study Baji, it is my favourite CMA to watch. I have a few questions - how long have you studied each style of taijiquan that you mentioned? Aside from the 5-day intensive with your Sifu, what other time have you spent with him? These are not personal attacks, the questions are motivated by trying to work out how you come to be a taijiquan teacher of a style you've been studying for such a short period. My query about why you stopped training with Ian was because it seems Ian teaches a good fighting method of taijiquan (I've never trained with him or met him other than a brief pushing hands thing he did at Brighton Taiji day), and that seemed to be (from your words) what you went to your current Sifu for. Was it a case of different emphasis?
Anthony - Im afraid Im not allowed to show video of my form or my teachers form. There is a Yang form taught publicly, and a version that is taught privately to certain students. I am lucky enough to be studying the latter one and I have to keep it private. It's a bit secret squirrel but I have to respect John's wishes. I hope you understand - I would happily show someone in person, but I cant put anything onto video (not if I want to keep on with my training).
Whilst I was training yesterday I came to an unconscious realisation that made itself known to me (finally - Ive been aware of it for a few days but have ignored it) - this whole conversation is pointless and I've spent a lot of energy here for no real purpose, I don't actually have a goal in criticising your art and it I cant think of a worthwhile one that merits continuing in the current vein. It doesnt actually matter what or how you guys train - I should have stuck to my original line and refused to be drawn on the Wahnam taijiquan front, I allowed a barbed post to pull me in (which is insufficient excuse). You like what you do, I like what I do. So with my regards, I am going to disengage from this debate - I will post the video links to what I consider to be taijiquan following the principles I adhere to, but I want it taken in the light of sharing a point of view, not an attack on Wahnam taijiquan. I will certainly only be discussing it in that light.
I hope you respect and understand my reasons for withdrawing from this debate. I was stepping into a mode of discussion that is not healthy - I would rather stay healthy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVgg4bFxLDk - some of the best Chen style Ive seen. Wonderful display of whole body fa-jing appearing and then disappearing. It makes me feel like crying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss&search=taiji - zhaobao style taijiquan (which is very closely linked to Chen style). WHilst the practitioners are at very different skill levels, it is a great display of someone losing their centre and never being allowed to regain it. It is similar to how I train at higher intensity with my teacher - you can see what I mean about the spirit getting broken.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BUoU...h=Yang%20style - this is a teacher demonstrating against other teachers. It is hard to see what is happening, but watch the structure of the people that touch hands with him - they are getting demolished internally/structurally instantly. This guy is very very skilled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjdkw...h=Yang%20style this is the only Yang style I could find that was showing some of the principles I seek, but he does a weird disconnected waist/hip squaring at the end of his moves - I assume to be working some sort of fa-jing. Anyway, it's quite interesting.
I'll post more tomorrow - i need to eat and stuff now. Hope you like the videos.
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