Core differences between Shaolinquan and Taijiquan

[Zhang Wuji]

Hello StierSifu and all

It is odd that as I go on in this thread, I have noticed a convergence of genuine Taijiquan and high level genuine Shaolinquan. Just the discussion on the stances alone would indicate something very interesting (albeit obvious) - Genuine Shaolinquan and Taijiquan are very different from the modern debased (I use that word somewhat apologetically) styles. For example, the modern practitioners would use a Bow Arrow Stance with the feet shoulder-width apart thinking that this physical lateral stabilty is better for combat. Yet, what seems so counter-intuitive in the traditional Bow Arrow stance turns out the best. For Shaolin Wahnam, the heels in line stance makes for a smooth and natural qi flow, not to mention the other advantages of not giving a free offer to the opponent. For StierSifu's Shen Men Tao, the stance allows unified convergence of power.

You misunderstood my post. The follow-up step of the rear foot is done at the completion of the fa-jing...not during the initial part of its application...and as such...adds to the fullness of all the body weight to the front leg and foot as it follows the momentum of the strike directly on the line of movement to the point of combined...unified power convergence!

Again, I do apologise if I misunderstood your post. At my low level, I can only see things from my limited perspective and I am grateful that the masters I speak to, and especially my Sifu are always patient with me.

Following from the above, does this mean that when one performs fajing, it is not always necessary to sink totally into a full stance, with both legs already in place? I would imagine though at the point of unified power convergence the whole body would stop moving and would have sunk down?

Oops, have to go. Will post again when I have a little more time.

[Chiahua]

academia nuts

Thank you to whoever compiled the summary of this thread on the Wahnam website, I gained much from it.

My interpretation, confirmed by direct experience, is different. The tenet means that one must be rooted to the ground with a solid stance, with a slight twist or sinking of the abdomen, internal force from the dan tian is channeled out through the body and through the arms to strike an opponent with the hand.

When properly rooted, the chi of fa-jing does not rebound back to you. It moves downward with the sinking or lowering of the body during the counterstrike to 'bounce' off the floor or ground, then moves upward in a truly relaxed body to the last point of surface tension, which should be either the stretched palm of the hand or the closed fist where it is released into the opponent's body with a 'snap of the whip' electrical discharge.

I remember reading in a taijiquan classic, probably from Tai Chi Theory & Martial Power by Yang Jwing Ming, that one's root extends past the dantian and into the ground. The "ground force" I always understood was not a drawing of energy from the ground, but closer to what Sifu Stier mentions. At my low level of understanding, I thought of it as issuing power by pushing off the ground with the legs and redirecting it with the hands. Of course this notion totally ignores qi or energy. I could see the difference between Sifu Wong's and Sifu Stier's explanations being a matter of degree. From Sifu Wong's perspective, with a solid enough stance you only have to send the energy down to the dantian to explode out power. On the other hand, perhaps with a springier more relaxed stance, you can send the energy past the abdominal dantian and into the feet, and then issue it from the feet on up (as a process of "reflecting" the energy)... so no energy is actually "drawn" from the earth, it'd be a process of sending it down and back up.
Just casting more stones to attract jade...


Chia-Hua

PS I found the video clips of the Wahnam Taijiquan form fascinating. Some of the outward forms looked like Chen family patterns, but without the characteristic coiling expression. That's probably because as was mentioned in the article quoted above, the jing is still there but not explicitly manifest in the form.

[Andrew]

It is indeed a wonderful set of articles. I would, at this juncture, like to mention one particular point.

On the page regarding Fa-Jing, Sifu notes:

But if the opponent has a powerful protection of chi, like an advanced Golden Bell exponent, his flowing chi may bounce off your internal force back into your body to hurt you instead.

One of our Shaolin Wahnam instructors had this experience. (I would not name him unless he wishes to identify himself and elaborate.) I was explaining to Darryl the use of the Monkey Paw when this instructor struck me hard with a Black Tiger. I had forgotten about this incident until a few years later the instructor recalled the incident and told me that as he struck me, he felt an excruciating pain shoot back into his body.

I was the instructor in question and I remember the incident vividly.

It was at the end of my first Intensive Shaolin Kung Fu course - an experience I will never forget for many reasons.

Sifu was demonstrating the use of the Monkey Paw as he mentions and asked me to punch him. Having heard Sifu repeatedly telling the course members (including me) not to play or dance but to strike with reasonable force, I used the pattern "Black Tiger Steals Heart" to strike Sifu. I did so with, for my level at the time, considerable force -- which is actually puny compared to Sifu.

For whatever reason I contacted Sifu's upper arm quite forcefully before he demonstrated the Monkey Paw technique to the onlookers. There was literally a shot of pain which rebounded back into me through my fist, wrist and arm up into the shoulder. Sifu didn't even seem to register that I had hit him

I was shocked in both meanings of the word
- I was shocked energetically by the amount of force which rebounded from Sifu into me (yes, it really was a painful experience). I am quite certain that Sifu's internal force added considerably to my own force on the way back.
- I was shocked mentally - I could not have believed that what happened would / could happen before experiencing it myself.

Andrew

[DarkCosmoz]

For whatever reason I contacted Sifu's upper arm quite forcefully before he demonstrated the Monkey Paw technique to the onlookers. There was literally a shot of pain which rebounded back into me through my fist, wrist and arm up into the shoulder. Sifu didn't even seem to register that I had hit him

That is amazing. One can only imagine if someone tried to give Sifu Wong a dead arm..

Stephen

[Sifu Stier]

Wei...no wei!

Anyone with a strong defensive energy (wei-chi) and the ability to receive outside energy and passively allow it to instantly pass through them to their root before reverberating back upward and outward to its source....like Sifu Wong for example....will be able to rebound or bounce others away from them...or give then a potent electrical energy chi shock...even without having developed an Iron Shirt or Golden Bell Cover Chi-Kung.

Most Masters who possess such energy and skills have to mentally install a 'dimmer switch' eventually in order to reduce the outgoing chi from full volume at all times. This allows for normal contact with others without automatically 'shocking' them or repelling them. Whenever they are 'in the zone' of focused concentration and activity...however...such as when teaching interactively with others...it may still happen anyway...especially when the energy and intention directed towards them is suddenly more intense....since this generates an automatic defense reaction which is spontaneous and unthinking.

Ain't it great?

[Zhang Wuji]

Wei Wuji!

The Yang Chia Small Frame Fast Forms Set...as it was taught by Lee Wing-Wah Sifu...has no width in the 'Bow Stance'. The heels are positioned on a line to facilitate the triangular point of convergence where External Power and Internal Power meet for maximum Unified Power. As you noted...such convergence of the two is not possible when the feet are placed otherwise...with any degree of width between them...as often seen is exercise only Tai-Chi Forms nowadays.

Combatively...the width sacrifices Unified Power for the sake of increased lateral stability which is not needed when the stances and steps are 'rooted'...and one's steps are swift and agile...since the body's center of gravity in a rooted stance or step is always below the location of any force placed on it...including leg trips...foot sweeps...and kicks directed to the legs and feet. So...the width is a bad trade in my opinion. It is trading too much for too little in return!

.

Sorry to be revisting this thread with more musings.....

Instead of using two different sets of Bow Arrow stances (one with legs shoulder width apart, as is commonly taught in Taijiquan and what I affectionately call the Shaolin Wahnam Bow Arrow stance), I now only use the Wahnam stance. It makes life much simpler, except that when practising with my Taijiquan class, i usually do what everyone else is doing to avoid awkward corrections by my instructor. I tried explaining the merits of the Bow Arrow Stance with the feet in line, but only managed to invite indignant protests from my fellow students that this leads to instability. So, I gave it up and just adapted my stance accordingly. I also did not want to "be different" and to contradict the instructor. Like we say in Chinese, harmony is the most important. But in my own practice, I practice like how Sifu taught me.

I have also been pondering WHY modern Taijiquan teachers teach that the Bow Arrow stance must be shoulder width apart. As StierSifu has generously revealed, there are Taijiquan styles which Bow Arrow stances follow the same principle and the same foot positioning. What could be the reason for the variations?

For the Wu2 (Ng) style, one theory is that the Imperial robes of the bodyguards made it difficult to make a long deep stance, hence it was necessary to modify the Bow Arrow stance into very small one. The Shaolin, Chen and Yang styles had no such inhibitions, and could choose the best, most stable stance available. The Imperial bodyguards had to make do with what they could given their costumes.

I am not sure if this is correct but I feel when the Bow Arrow stance is small and high, qi flow is affected if the feet are on the same line. I have tried it and found that I can only sink into the stance if the feet are further apart. I think the Wu3 Bow Arrow stance is like a normal step one takes when walking. Unless one is catwalking, one walks with feet apart. The Wu3 Bow Arrow stance was the most appropriate and the best compromise in that situation.

My experience is that my "kua" (hip/waist/thigh joints) cannot fully relax and be opened if the feet are too close together.This is not the case with a False Leg stance where the weight is on the back leg and the qi is flowing accordingly. But when the weight is divided, it seems to me that the feet must be some distance apart, either front to back (as in the standard Bow Arrow stance) or laterally (Horse -Riding stance).

As for other styles, I cannot think of any reasons why the feet need to be shoulder width in a deep stance except that it is physically easier to balance.

Any thoughts?

[yongshi]

Wong Doc-Fai (Choy Lee Fut),....

watched Sifu Wong Doc-Fai's classes,....
Sifu Wong Doc-Fai is a grandmaster of Choy Li Fatt, which is an external school of Shaolin that emphasizes combat efficiency, not health. Anyway, I believe Sifu Wong Doc Fai has been practicing Taijiquan since he was in his 30s.

This may be a little bit off-topic but I just want to comment on Wong Doc-Fai Sifu and his mo kwoons. Judging from Antonius' comments on Wong Doc-Fai Sifu, it seems that he may not actually be a "3rd-class Kung Fu master" or that he may really have some skills. On the other hand, his style of teaching and the quality of his classes taught at his studio in San Francisco is really horrible and fits exactly what Wong Sifu (Wong Kiew Kit) says regarding the degenerative Kung Fu and "kungfu gymnastics" that Wong Sifu so commonly describes in his question-answer series and articles. I think "horrible" to describe Wong Doc-Fai's teaching methods may actually be a little too nice. I can personally vouch for these statements because I've been attending Choy Li Fut classes at his main studio in San Francisco for about 1.5-2 years and quit when I was an "orange belt", about 6 years ago.

The problem with Wong Doc-Fai's teaching methods is that he never actually teaches the class! Nor does his son, Jason Wong ever teach. The only time during those 2 years that I saw Wong Doc-Fai was one time during testing class when I tried to apply for the yellow (or orange? I forget) belt on the weekends, and I saw him once sitting on a chair, looking kind of angry. Jason Wong only personally taught the class maybe 2 or 3 times out of the entire 1.5-2 years I attended there. We had classes like 3-4 times a week. Rather, he had his assistants (they were fairly advanced and some of them were prety strong though it seems like most of them derived their strength from weight-lifting) teach us every class but their teaching methods were horrible. And most of the time if I ever saw Jason Wong, he was either in his office writing up stuff for the newcomers or doing some kind of errands with his brand-new classy car. The class routine is as follows: before or during the first minutes of class, we would always do some stretching movements, and then we maybe (sometimes but very inconsistent because many times we skipped it) do some stance training or running around the mokwoon to "Warm-up". Then, we would perform some basic sets and after that, we would all separate and the assistant instructors would teach us different sets individually, depending on our "belts". After that, class is usually over or sometimes we would maybe occasionally be taught some throwing moves on mats. We were never taught combat application and I don't think we were ever taught force training too, besides sitting on an extremely low horse stance with thighs parallel to the ground and the thighs and knees forming a 90-degree angle. Sometimes, the assisant instructors would occasionally teach us techniques, ie "cool-looking" wuxia movie-type kicks or some "practical street-fighting techniques" never found in the sets that we practice. We also had to spend tons of money buying "sparring equipment" (the typical modern-karate and modern-taekwondo sports sparring equipment, ie shin protectors, genital protectors, headguard, arm-gear, boxing gloves, etc.). The only "combat application" that we ever taught was to just "fight" with the sparring equipment on and were told to try to "score points" by hitting at the right areas, like we were training for a sports competition or something. Nothing concerning how to fight in real combat situations using Choy Li Fut techniques were ever taught; we were simply told to just "fight" and I just simply copied what everyone else was doing, ie holding both fists like in a boxing or modern karate stance, and simply punching and kicking without regard to technique or form, like we were fighting in an Olympic competition or something. Is this real kungfu or fake BS? Doesn't this description fit the type of "kung fu gymnastics" that Wong Sifu so regularly talks about?

We simply learn sets over and over again, with no force training taught and "sparring equipment fighting" as "combat application". As for the competitions, the only people to ever enter them are either the Sifus (Doc Fai Wong and Jason Wong) or the students that have been there for like 5-10 years, and it also costs a bundle just to join. Oh yes, I forgot, the lion-dance people also appear in competitions too. I also tried to practice everyday during morning before I went to school but what I found actually improving was neither my skills nor force nor combat application skill (all three never taught) but except for my forms, which I still had trouble with.

And the costs for the classes are really not worth it in my opinion, considering the low-quality teaching found in his classes. I decided to quit because: 1. I was learning nothing in those classes except how to spar and win competitions using headgear and other "sparring equipment", 2. The amount of money spent on those classes and the gas money was really pissing my parents off, 3. It interfering with my school schedule, 4. I was really tired and even a bit too stressed out sometimes after kung fu class that I often had to wait a few hours and relax until I could do my homework.

It was this experience that a couple of years later I began to understand what Wong Sifu meant by "3rd-class kung fu"/"kung fu gymnastics"; it really fits the descriptions.

[Antonius]

I'm very saddened to hear this account.