Tai Chi Chuan vs Wing Tsung

[Antonius]

No offense, Wudang, but I'm guessing that you've read a lot of books but have no direct experience of the things you talk about.

Have you met Dr. Yang?

[Ovidius]

you've read a lot of books but have no direct experience of the things you talk about.

No offense Anthony but if people would talk only about things what they know from direct experience then there would be not much discussion here. I think Wudang Boxer has been fair since he cites Dr. Yang openly and does not claim he "invented" that information.

Best regards,
Panu

[Darryl]

Different sources

Hi Panu,

I believe that the point being made is that is that it is always better to talk from a point of having personally experienced what is being discussed. If you haven't experienced it and have only read of it, this is also OK but is unlikely to be as relevant as direct experience. In this example, the difference may be in the delivery, not the source of the material. The forum is open to everyone, but the emphasis within the forum is for people to talk from direct experience, or in their own words. Quoting from a book is fine, listing the author and title also fine (and a nice touch), but it is still the initial persons interpretation that shapes everything else.

What would be more interesting is views from practitioners of both Wing Tsun (any spelling) and Tai Chi Chuan (any spelling). They could then comment from either their experiences within their arts, or suggest applications and philosophies from within their personal understanding.

[Chiahua]

Maybe we need to move this discussion to a thread entitled, "Epistemology"!
Okay I'll be quiet now!

[Antonius]

No offense Anthony but if people would talk only about things what they know from direct experience then there would be not much discussion here.

Off topic, but I totally disagree. On many discussion forums, you can find people talking about Qi and internal force, but ours is one of the few forums where the people are doing more than just talking. They are also walking.

A large number of people here (probably the majority) don't just talk about Qi and internal force -- they experience it daily. How many people reading this could stand up right now from their computer and generate a qi flow in 5 minutes or less? How many people here have experienced internal force both in themselves and directly from Sifu? How many have cured themselves of so-called incurable illnesses?

My impression of Wudang may be incorrect, and if so, I'm sure he will help to correct me. Nevertheless, my gut tells me that he's talker, not a walker. I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again, but that won't stop me from expressing my opinions.

[Chiahua]

...On many discussion forums, you can find people talking about Qi and internal force, but ours is one of the few forums where the people are doing more than just talking. They are also walking.

Was being silly, but you are right about the talking and the walking. That's what keeps me coming back!

[Antonius]

Was being silly

I know, and it was funny. :P

[drunken boxer]

What would be more interesting is views from practitioners of both Wing Tsun (any spelling) and Tai Chi Chuan (any spelling).

I don't know if you meant practitioners who have studied both arts or just one. I have only studied taijiquan, but anyway, my master sometimes demonstrates a wing chun style punch, and then shows the same punch but in taijiquan style, so that I can see the subtle differences. Often they look similar, but there are quite a few differences which increase the force in comparison, and that is even before talking about chi, internal force etc. But as I say I have never practiced wing chun, and my master does not practice wing chun so this is a one sided opinion. No doubt there are bound to be wing chun masters who do the same thing in reverse.

[Wudang Boxer]

My experience

Think about this sir,

Even If I told you about my experiences how would you know that they were truly genuine experiences. The whole point of this topic is the outcome of an external artist training vs. an internal artist training. If you fail to keep within these lines then you are no longer speaking on the topic.

If you are questioning my authencity; whatever the questioning may be, then what can I do but share my knowledge with you. I cannot afford a web cam like many others to show my techniques, but I can give you references to help you find whatever you are looking for.

Can you blame me for doing what I know to do best. Research. I dont need to put your name down you know who I am speaking too. I would like to hear from you more often.

Peace.

[Chiahua]

My current sifu is both a practitioner of Wing Chun and Taijiquan. I don't know how "external" his taijiquan is or how "internal" his wing chun is. Howerver, he has demonstrated some of the commonalities that he personally has observed (his sifu is also a wing chun/taijiquan exponent). For instance he demonstrated a wing chun move that also happened to embody the peng/lu/zai/an (ward-off roll-back press push of grasping bird's tail). Of course done in the wing chun fashion the observable movements were very compact. I think it was some sort of tan sau sequence, and all of the principles of grasping bird's tail was performed with one hand.
But as has been repeated in the forum many times, it's not just the art that matters, it's the practitioner more than anything else. We could speculate a battle royale between Chen Fa Ke and Yip Man, but at their level it's not so much a question of the style but their force, knowledge of technique, and factors that probably trascend either of those two. From a discussion on this forum, I was reading about Mas Oyama. While Karate doesn't command the greatest esteem in some circles, but Oyama Ou-sensei reached a singular level of skill worthy of great respect.

[Antonius]

Wudang, you have been extremely polite, and for that you are to be commended. Please do not think that I am trying to pick on you. I have a habit of being direct, but my intention here is to help.

As for staying on topic, I think this is close enough because it raises the issue of experiential vs. intellectual discussion, which is important for this thread. The topic of this thread is an intellectual question that, frankly, has already been answered. That's not to say that all things intellectual are bad. They aren't. But it's helpful to distinguish between the two.

Research is a good thing, but I assume that you are doing your research for a reason. I myself did a lot of research that ultimately led me to Sifu Wong. Would you rather read about internal force, or experience it? If you are eager for direct experience, then this forum can be a great help specifically because it is filled with people who have direct experience.

If you have already experienced it, then please correct me.

Even If I told you about my experiences how would you know that they were truly genuine experiences.

This raises a good point. The answer is: I can't tell for sure. These are just words on a screen. I can't even be sure who is typing the words. For all I know, you could be 10.

Nevertheless, words can reveal a lot. For example, when reading the words of past masters, I can tell that their words are based on direct experience because their words match my own experiences. Similarly, when someone lacks direct experience, you can often tell that there is something missing in their words.

An example. I recently read an article by a Tai Chi instructor (back on topic, see!). The way he talked about Qi and internal force made it clear to me that he was not talking from direct experience. I can't be sure until I meet him, but I would be willing to bet good money on my guess.

[Wudang Boxer]

I understand you.

What you mean is that whatever I talk about must be something that I have experienced before. Your principal is "dont talk about something you dont know about" right!

Okay on an intellectual level I feel I have nothing to hide from you. My first training in the "arts" was a Qigong form called "Yi Jin Jing" (Excuse my spelling) which is supposed to be a Qigong form created by Da Mo. I learned these forms from yes Dr. Yang Jwing, Ming- Qigong for Health & Martial Arts.

The energy I developed after a month from this exercise was so overwhelming that my body began having muscle spasems from the blocked qi channels. I couldnt move my body one step because I was paralized (all over). Later I began training in the Daoist form of sitting meditation using reverse breathing.

I felt little results from this exercise, but after a review of what I was practicing I found out that sitting meditation Qigong takes a longer time to acheive then the previous Qigong I was studying. It is also more complecated seeing that you have to move the Qi along certain pathways on the front and back of the torso and head called "small circulaiton. After 2 years of on and off training I have accomplished "small circulation" and am beginning to experience the flow of Qi throughout my whole body like as if I were a ball of non-material energy (I feel formless); this is called "grand circulation".

There is also further training of directing the Qi from one palm to the other or moving Qi in a "secret sword" hand form to a flame in sitting meditation, but I have not taken my Qigong to this next level. When I brought this point up it was for those who may of not known. That is all, I am sleepy.

Peace

[Andrew]

I am sorry if I missed this in an earlier part of this thread but who have you personally learnt from? From what you have written here it would seem that you have just learnt from books. If that is really so, then your results are remarkable to put it mildly.

Andrew

[drunken boxer]

But as has been repeated in the forum many times, it's not just the art that matters, it's the practitioner more than anything else. We could speculate a battle royale between Chen Fa Ke and Yip Man, but at their level it's not so much a question of the style but their force, knowledge of technique, and factors that probably trascend either of those two.

My master thinks taijiquan is the greatest martial art - no surprise of course, people always think their art is best otherwise they'd practice another. But he told me once that if masters of (in his example) taijiquan, xingyi, and shaolin were to fight, the master who has reached the highest level will win.

[Sifu Stier]

Tai-Chi-Chuan vs. Wing-Chun-Do

Greetings to All! It always seems to me that questions like this totally miss the point that any style or system is only as good as the person practicing it.
All questions of comparative fitness factors such as strength, flexibility, balance, body control, stamina, etc., as well as technique factors such as speed, timing, agility, judgement of distance, and ability to control the gap, etc., can ALL be considered subject to invisible, inner factors which are most often difficult to adequately assess in any combative opponent . I refer to 'spiritual' factors which transcend individual style or system. The person who is willing to discipline the mind and 'spirit' as well as the body can incorporate more than mere athleticism and martial technique in their art. In so doing, they can use mind cultivated 'spiritual powers' to surpass what would have been their normal physical limitations. The use of mental visualizations, guided imagery, verbal affirmations, auto-suggestion, subconscious reprogramming, and application of emotional content are but a few of these unlimited 'internal' factors. The 'Nei-jia' or 'Internal Styles' such as Tai-chi-chuan, Pa-kua-chang, and Hsing-yi-chuan generally place a higher agenda priority on this type of self-cultivation than do the 'Wai-jia' or 'External Styles', especially since the latter arts left the meditative atmosphere of the Temples from whence they originated. It is more probable, therefore, that Internal Stylists will develop such mental skills more quickly and easily in the normal course of their training. The Spiritual Realm of Kung-Fu, however, remains open to all practitioners of all styles should they choose to embrace it. It is my humble opinion, therefore, that those who train themselves to a high level of skill mentally and spiritually in addition to training their physical attributes and techniques will be superior martial artists regardless of Style, and easily able to defeat those who would dare to cross hands with them!