silver and gold

[Anthony S]

Regarding Sifu Anthony K’s statement about feeling guilty about mistaken pricing policies for certain students I feel the same way. Even though my heart was open to try to help them my generosity did the opposite.

So, what can we do now? Don’t make the same mistake twice.

[Lara]

I find topics about money and finance interesting. I can relate to Maxime's post about the 'poor' mind set. I was raised by my parents and grandparents who lost everything in World War II. I was told lots of stories about how they fled their county and stayed in refugee camps. When they arrived to Canada they were treated differently. Their status changed and they worked very hard to earn a living and provide for their children.

Along with the stories something else was passed on. A mind set about money. The mind set was set in scarcity and fear. There was also some generosity and sacrifice, one had to work really hard.

In my late twenties and thirties I started to see my own issues and blockages surrounding money. At times the lessons have been hard. I needed to change my perspective around money from one of scarcity and fear to abundance, generosity and gratitude. It's hard to receive if there is no belief or trust in abundance and providence. This lesson follows me and I am at times still challenged.

I lived a large part of my life holding onto money due to scarcity and fear. Let me say it is not pleasant. I remember when my husband wanted to take his first course with Sifu. I thought it was expensive and didn't understand why he wanted to go. He convinced me after some time. At the time we had some savings and were living in Vietnam.

My husband attended the Intensive Chi Kung course in Sabah, I did not participate. I was with my two children the youngest (Athena) was 8 months at the time. We were not supposed to go, but luck would have it we found really cheep tickets with Air Asia at the time. While at the course I noticed I became jealous. Hungry. I wanted to be able to take such a course.

My responsibilities as a mother were priority so I was not able to attend a course for another 3 years. At that time we didn't have the money. My husband was in school and I was cleaning houses for income. I deeply wanted to go to a course. I had become aware of suffering in my own life a year prior. My husband had no problem with me going because he had the experience of attending. For me it was a leap of faith. The money being a factor at the time and my difficulties surrounding it. But my heart wanted to attend. We borrowed money on a line of credit from the bank. So I went to Costa Rica. I also got a good deal on a ticket.

I prayed that I would receive great benefit and wrote down several objectives for the course. With little finances and two children I wanted to make the most of this opportunity. Who knows when and if I would get another chance. I remember checking off all my objectives early on in the course. After that, the same objectives were addressed but deeper and deeper and deeper still.

Well the experience was life altering on so many levels. There was so much to learn and receive. Was the price high? NO.

With my husband and myself and soon my son taking courses, it's a significant portion of our income. Families spend large portions of money on education and this is considered a wise investment. Any course my son and daughter can take is a wise investment and worth any debt or monetary sacrifice.

With love and gratitude,
Opened and blooming,

Lara

[Zhang Wuji]

Dear Lara

I certainly remember you sitting by the side with the baby, and as you say "not participating" when Charles was at the course in Sabah. But I think that you were indeed participating, only not visibly. I also recall you seemed unhappy - it is only know that I know that you were hungry for what we were learning.

Like you, my wife faced the same issues - at the time i took the course, it was very expensive for me, and I almost did not dare to tell her about it. In fact, until she took the first intensive course, she was never supportive of my qigong practice. It wasn't just her but all my family members could not believe I would blow such a large amount of money on the course (today, everyone of them has attended an intensive course). It is immensely difficult for anyone to appreciate why anyone would spend $1000 (Euros / USD / RM) on a 3-day course, until they have experienced it for themselves.

I also grew up with scarcity of money, and I have always been very thrifty (hence, my family's surprise at my going for the course). But as Martin, Darryl and so many others have said, the fact that I had to take the extra effort (to save, to go without a little food everyday, and to come to terms with spending that amount of money) was at all the same time, a test of my determination to make my life better, a process of making me ready to receive the Shaolin arts, and a reflection of my hunger to be well again. Darryl, I really loved your story - it struck a chord with me. Thank you for sharing.

Back to Davie. I am not surprised he has left. I hinted that there was something wrong with his post and suspected he was saying more than what he let on. It is like someone saying 'I don't mean to be rude but....".

As Maxime so succintly pointed out, some "poor" people spend much more on their vices than I do for my whole family's gorceries in the same time period. If people say they cannot afford something good for them, it is almost always an excuse. They just are not prepared to sacrifice something else.

I also understood fully where the other instructors are coming from.I have not taught any student for free, but because I felt very sorry for one particular student, I taught that student some exercises for his specific medical condition without charge. And like Anthony and so many teachers before us, I experienced the unpleasant feeling of being betrayed by his ingratitude.

As Michael Durkin wrote some time back, those who complain about high fees always look at it from the perspective of a student only. The instructors are able to see from both sides of the spectrum. Charging high or at least higher fees, is necessary to test or filter out underserving students. I certainly would not want to teach someone who wants a treasure without doing anything. Doing anything in this case is not the payment of the fees, but working so that he can afford the fees. Anthony's words bear repeating:

Because they hadn't paid anything, those people found it easy to stop coming to class and to stop practicing. They didn't value the arts because they had gotten them for free.

If I were not charging the fees I do now, I would have set some other kind of test. In the old days, the master would make the student stay in the Horse-Riding stance for hours. If the student gave up, he was deemed underserving. One of the ancestors in my Taijiquan lineage was told to practice picking up trees branches from the ground and leaves from the tree for 3 years without doing anything else. Ho Sigung practiced just the One-Finger Zen for 3 years (Hmmm, there is something about the number 3).

In fact, I am half-thinking of instituting a new rule for all my students - miss more than 3 classes without a proper reason, and I will refund the fees and tell them to leave. The only reason why I have not done so yet is because this is not Shaolin Wahnam policy. The payment of the fees is really only a first step. This point has been repeated ad nauseum but some people just don't get it. If a person is not even prepared to take the first step, he is never going to last the full journey. If a student is not committed, he is wasting his time, and mine. And my time is precious - it can be fruitfully spent with my family, teaching more deserving students, and in fact, my professional hourly rate is more than $500 an hour. Just paying the course fees alone does not make a student deserving - he must continue to show that he is.

[namaste]

Taking Responsibility

Greetings to all,

Thank you for the posts so far, I have been reading with great interest and now have something to add. I work providing services for disadvantaged people (homeless people and people with learning disabilities) in the city where I live and so the subject of social and economic 'wealth' is one I find hard not to intellectualise about to some degree; my apologies.

My experience of living in Britain now, is that people in our society place an increasing amount of responsibility on others rather than the 'self' for their situation. By 'situation' I mean status: living conditions, work, aspirations, opportunities, education and finance etc. We blame the government, 'the system' or our parents / families for what we 'are'. While these things have an effect so some degree with everyone, I feel there is an imbalance in people's perceptions of responsibility. There is less and less personal responsibility taken for our own situation. People feel powerless or that they don't have the skills (physical, emotional, intellectual, spiritual) to improve their own situations. People I work with often think they don't deserve to have anything good in life and often don't / can't make a connection that it is up to them to make things better and that they can do this (with the right support). Against this background we are 'told' (by the media / politicians) that we should have access to everything; we can all aspire to be a famous celebrity and have whatever job we want and be rich - purchase whatever we want.

Our society tells us that everyone should have equal opportunity to access what life has to offer - material things, work, education, wealth etc. But if we mistakenly believe that society is responsible for us, then we can fall into the trap of thinking that society should give us whatever we want. I think this diminishing of personal responsibility in western culture is partly behind the questioning of prices ("Why does this cost so much? It is not accessible to everyone - it should be easier for everyone to get these teachings"). It's difficult for the questioner to resolve this within Wahnam because it's not actually about the money, as has been described above. The challenge to the individual is to do the physical, emotional and spiritual work required in order to be in a position to attend the classes.

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Love to all.

Richard

[drunken boxer]

I have two points to make.

1. I think any teacher has a right to charge what they like, and everyone else has the right to pay it or not pay it.
I think relatively speaking its easier to raise £250-£1000 than it would be to get to train with other traditional masters in the past, or even the present in some cases. My other Master only received inner chamber teachings from one of his Masters after saving his life.

2. I'm very sorry to hear that Davie has left. He is one of the nicest people I have met, very formidable in combat terms, but also one of the kindest big hearted people. Training with him was a blast.

If you are still reading the thread Davie I just want to wish you well.

[Antonius]

And my time is precious - it can be fruitfully spent with my family, teaching more deserving students, and in fact, my professional hourly rate is more than $500 an hour.

This is something that people -- including my own students -- don't often think about. Teaching publicly is, in itself, a form of generosity. I quit my cushy tech job to teach these arts. Had I not quit my job, I'd be making more than triple my current salary -- and with health insurance too!

[George]

More of the same...

As shaolin is a compassionate art, meant for the benifit of all beings, why do we, as a school charge so much money for courses, classes and healing?

If you want the best you have to be prepared to pay for it. That's just how it is.

In the old days you had to pay with years of your time. Personally, I think money is a far easier option.

And only the rich will be able to afford chi kung healing.

I went to a dentist a few months ago and my bill came up to about £1100 for about 4 hours' work. Suddenly, Chi Kung healing did not seem that expensive at all...


Best wishes,

[Molly]

Hi all,

This has been a good discussion so far. I'm really moved to hear what some people chose to endure to get to a course with Sifu. That is a facet of the discipline and dedication these arts require of us. And obviously, pretty much nobody here would argue that the rewards far outweigh the costs.

As Sifu has mentioned in a previous Q & A (I'd go looking for it, but it's getting late here), he is providing a service in the capacity of a professional. Many doctors, lawyers, therapists, and consultants who are very skilled in their trade charge $100 upwards for the services they provide. Few ever bat an eyelash at this- the justification being you have to pay for quality if you want it. It is no different in this case. I just did the math for the cost of an intensive kung fu course by the hour and it's a mere 44 euros per hour. Hardly an expensive fee seen in light of what you receive. It's an interesting contrast when I think of all the money my father spent on my college education (thanks Daddy!) for a degree that I don't even use. Sure I'm successful, but I didn't need that degree to get there.

I treat my "kungfu fund" money, as I like to call it, like a sort of short term retirement account. Everytime I get paid, I put the same amount into my savings account and I don't touch it for anything but training with Wahnam. I live a fairly modest life and don't go out too often so it's not that hard to budget. If I really need to get girly and go shopping, $30 at the thrift store buys me more clothes than I can shake a stick at. It's all about priorities. Training is mine, and I work my income around it.

I am saddened at Davie's decision, but I'd argue it wasn't simply a question of course fees. This is something that has been explained well over and over. All the justification can be found in the pages of this forum and Sifu's website. I guess I'll just have to leave him with his decisions and carry on.


I for one put a little more money into the bank today.

Best wishes to all,

Molly

[Robin]

Nice thread

Hey brothers and Sisters,

This is a great thread with lots of interesting opinions, so I''l just quickly add mine.

I agree with Anthony K,

In life.

90% of the time you get what you pay for.

In my experience,

With Sifu, you get roughly 10x's what you pay for.


However, many students may actually say

With Sifu, what you get is priceless! and I would have given any material possesion that I own to learn what I did'


If you want the best, you pay for the best, and generally you don't complain.

All the best

Robin

[Kingmonkey]

What a wonderful thread, thank you very much Davie for starting this.
All those lovely evidences of dedication made me shed a tear of happiness yesterday morning, I was really moved......

Pat

[Andrew]

Working courses with Sifu (or other instructors) back to an hourly rate is an interesting exercise. When I first started to teach Shaolin Kung Fu in Zürich, I drove a total of 3 to 4 hours (return journey), taught for 2 hours, spent hours every week in email communications with students and potential students, paid for a training hall, etc. etc.. The income (fees for the class) seemed quite good. Once I had deducted all of the costs, I was either PAYING FOR TEACHING (i.e. losing money) or making less than a cleaner. But still I had people complaining at my fees (and they didn't get accepted to my class). Ironic?

[Hellsviking]

Davie started this thread obviously with an issue. IMO the fee thing is probably not his main issue, it was one example.

If an issue rises to a head, often protocol is broken.

Davie has been with shaolin for 8 years. Many have stated that he's a lovely person. If a brother falls (even if he acts like an unwise disrespectful jerk) don't you offer a hand to help him up?

[shaolin_mike]

Hey all,
First of I enjoyed reading this thread as it does put things into perspective. When I first got into chi kung I was a broke student of 17 and the cost of learning seemed really high to me, as it also included the cost of travelling. Now that I have entered the world of work I see the course fees differently, they are comparitively cheap for what you get out of a course.

I think we all fancy the notion of a world where chikung is freely taught everywhere and everyone has a high level of health but I don´t think anybody can blame Sifu that this is not the situation. We pay for our doctors to improve our health so why not a chikung master? I think another part of the issue is trust, ie maybe you are new to the Shaolin arts and so do not yet believe they will improve your health, and so feel reluctance to gamble some money on them. That said Sifu has himself put a full money-back policy on his courses so that "objection" is covered too...

[Markus Kahila]

If a brother falls (even if he acts like an unwise disrespectful jerk) don't you offer a hand to help him up?

- Of course we do. We take our kungfu family ties very seriously. But you see, Davie is not open for help; he has made it clear he wants to close the door on his kungfu family. Therefore, there's very little that we can do other than respect his choice and wish him well.

If someone really wants to leave, of course we let them. The Shaolin training is not for everyone. No reason to keep on persisting if your heart is not in it, and no reason to hold on to someone who doesn't want to be there.


Best wishes,

[Hellsviking]

That's true, but perhaps Davie had a good point on the lack of compassion.

It might have been more useful to appreciate his heartfelt reflection than spending all this energy validating the system and diminishing him.

At the same time some nice posts arose out of this, on how students scraped up the money and spent a lot of effort to get to courses.