closing thread "Shoot counter, Wrestling origins, and other Grappling topics"

[juszczec]

All

I think closing the thread was too extreme.

"Exploding heads with chi" is such an outrageous statement that you can't take it seriously.

What I find most outrageous is how no one (in either camp) is willing to admit the other guy might not be wrong.

Its also pretty outrageous not understanding how something long mysterious and exploited could be difficult to accept. Or understanding that folks who have seen the frauds might want some proof that this isn't another one.

And just so the other camp doesn't feel slighted...

Thinking the sun rises and sets on a particular group of athletes/practitioners is ridiculous.

Thinking that there is some kind of ultimate truth to fighting is also ridiculous.

And, in an effort to throw mud at myself...

Its outrageous that I've seen this kind of argument over and over and over again since I started training and I thought this time it would be different.

In the 70s it was kung fu, in the 80s ninjutsu, I was too busy to notice what it was in the 90s and now its wrestling/grappling/whatever.

Frankly, I'm here for my own education. That's why I followed this thread. I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. I'm here to listen to different views and experiences, weigh them based on my views, needs and experiences and incorporate them in my training if I feel I can get something out of them.

Pity we all didn't approach this the same way. Everyone might have learned something.


Mark

[Darryl]

Perspectives

Hi Mark,

I feel closing the thread was the right thing to do and since I had already noticed that the thread was circling, I viewed the thread as a waste of time. My reasons are -

1) As has been said countless times already, this is not an 'open' discussion forum. It is a discussion forum created initially to allow the students of Shaolin Wahnam to communicate with each other. However, we have kept it open to the general public.

2) Shaolin Wahnam schools teach Internal Force and the existence of chi in their syllabus, right from day one. As mentioned time and time again, we advocate direct experience over theoretical knowledge, or learning from books or videos.

3) It was repeatedly stated that it is not our task/job/problem if someone else doesn't believe what we say, see points 1 & 2 as to why.

4) People posting on this forum are doing so in their own time. This means that threads making blatantly untrue or misleading statements have to be addressed in some fashion. Since it is a Shaolin Wahnam forum, we (the instructors) have a responsibility to oversee the forum. This gives us a finite amount of time to devote to the forum and personally, I don’t like wasting my time in circular arguments when I could be answering relevant questions or advising students on their practice.

5) As Anthony pointed out, there are many more discussion forums on the internet. See point's 1 & 2 again.

Frankly, I'm here for my own education. That's why I followed this thread. I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. I'm here to listen to different views and experiences, weigh them based on my views, needs and experiences and incorporate them in my training if I feel I can get something out of them.

An understandable view. It is why I first visited other discussion forums and your view contains elements of why we are keeping this one open to the general public. If people strongly disagree, that’s fine - they're free to leave any time they want.

It may help to think of this forum as an extension of the classes and as such, a loud, belligerent, rude student would always be asked to leave the class since they would be taking up so much of the instructor(s) attention they would not be able to devote the time to the students who were actually there to learn.

[J.J.Binks]

As has been said countless times already, this is not an 'open' discussion forum. It is a discussion forum created initially to allow the students of Shaolin Wahnam to communicate with each other. However, we have kept it open to the general public.

Wow Darryl I never thought of/realized this...as such, I would like to offer my thanks for allowing me to post here and also an apology for any innappropriate comments I may have made on your discussion forum...Truth be told, what led me here is an underlying desire to one day become a student of Shaolin Wahnam.

[Schermitore]

Re: closing thread "Shoot counter, Wrestling origins, and other Grappling topics"

Originally posted by juszczec
All

I think closing the thread was too extreme.

"Exploding heads with chi" is such an outrageous statement that you can't take it seriously.

What I find most outrageous is how no one (in either camp) is willing to admit the other guy might not be wrong.

Its also pretty outrageous not understanding how something long mysterious and exploited could be difficult to accept. Or understanding that folks who have seen the frauds might want some proof that this isn't another one.

And just so the other camp doesn't feel slighted...

Thinking the sun rises and sets on a particular group of athletes/practitioners is ridiculous.

Thinking that there is some kind of ultimate truth to fighting is also ridiculous.

And, in an effort to throw mud at myself...

Its outrageous that I've seen this kind of argument over and over and over again since I started training and I thought this time it would be different.

In the 70s it was kung fu, in the 80s ninjutsu, I was too busy to notice what it was in the 90s and now its wrestling/grappling/whatever.

Frankly, I'm here for my own education. That's why I followed this thread. I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not. I'm here to listen to different views and experiences, weigh them based on my views, needs and experiences and incorporate them in my training if I feel I can get something out of them.

Pity we all didn't approach this the same way. Everyone might have learned something.


Mark

Wow.

I must admit that I am personally bummed, mainly because I was hoping to have a nice discussion about the relative merits of musket and bow with Chris.

However, apparently my skepticism (and my approach to voicing my skepticism) has upset some people.

Nevertheless, I will not apologize, for I really do not feel that I did anything wrong.

Chris made allusions to Sun Tzu and chi power; I am admittedly not too familiar with the man's writings, and so I asked what connection there was. I saw no harm in taking a somewhat humorous route there, but apparently some folks here have a rather thin skin. That's kind of funny, considering that Antonius referred to using one's fingers as steel daggers. Is exploding heads really any more ridiculous?

I find it rather ironic how folks here can post basically anything they want on this site, as long as it is pro-kung-fu, or pro-Internal Force, or whatever. As soon as someone posts ideas from another viewpoint, folks here get bent out of shape.

And that is really sad.

You have nothing more to be concerned with in regards to this site--you have created an exclusive MA microcosm, so enjoy it.

Peace,

David Black Mastro

P.S.

Chris, if you'd like to continue the discussion/debate on muskets and bows, let me know.

[cnholmes]

I was pursuing the muskets vs bows discussion as I thought it relevant to the wider study of martial pursuits. I admit it was a wide deviation from the subject, and was intending to ask for it to be moved - off the forum completely if that was deemed appropriate.

Scermitore, I don't have much left to say on the muskets vs bows discussion, but I would be interested in continuing. If this part of our discussion is not felt appropriate for this forum we could continue it elsewhere.

On the whole, I feel the rest of your posting was very intelligent and constructive and hope this would be the manner we can continue.

I'm afraid I did take offence to the remark about Sun Tzu, because no-one had suggested he had that ability and it belittled my suggestion of a discussion which could be revealing, whether I'm wrong or right.

I might continue that discussion later, but I would only be interested in people saying whether they think Sun Tzu's work embodies the fundamental principles of Internal Force, and in a way that can be put into practice in a martial setting. Also whether it can be stated that his philosophy showed that internal force had a direct influence on warfare, which was your original and IMHO pertinent question.

We have already discussed whether Internal Force exists and whether it could (or should) be proven. The points I gave then are the same as I would give now.

I think it was right the thread was closed, not least because it had long since ceased to address the subject.

My apologies to anyone annoyed at my digression. I should have created new threads for the discussion, or continued the discussion elsewhere.
Guidance on this would be appreciated.

Chris.

[Antonius]

If this part of our discussion is not felt appropriate for this forum we could continue it elsewhere.

You are welcome to do it here, but please do it in the Miscellaneous forum, and give it an appropriate title. Since the other thread was closed, it's difficult to move the relevant posts, so I would suggest just creating a thread yourself and quoting relevant sections.

If you want to create an additional thread on Sun Tzu, that's also fine.