BJJ vs.Shaolin for Grappling

[Darryl]

Big Daddy Boots

Hi folks,

I think we're veering off topic again.

Cross training should be discussed on a separate thread, this one is 'BJJ vs Shaolin'. Since JohnnyS is on his own here, I'm going to play devils advocate again.

If we take it from a static position, assuming that the Shaolin exponant is on his back but still concious, the BJJ exponent has got a full mount (both legs past the Shaolin persons hips, BJJ ankles tucked under his thighs so he cant get his legs thrashing around) and the 'tapout' option not allowed ....

What happens now?

From the post, the BJJ exponent is waiting for the Shaolin exponent to make a mistake so he can exploit it, the Shaolin exponent is looking for a safe and compassionate alternative to grabbing a rock or gouging out BJJ's eye.

Now what?

Themes of technique - so far, we have eye jabs. A previous thread covered Tiger Claw. While they may or may not be accepted as viable alternatives, they are options. Any others?

[Dark Knight]

Themes of technique - so far, we have eye jabs. A previous thread covered Tiger Claw. While they may or may not be accepted as viable alternatives, they are options. Any others?

Once on the ground throwing a Tigers Claw is a bad idea, what you are doing is giving him what he wants. He wants a limb to lock out in an arm bar, or a key lock or other lock.

Keep in mind he is thinking that you are going to try to strike him, he will not sit up so that you can have leverage to throw him off, he is going to stay close so that he can control your weapons, (Hands, Arms, knees) not only are these striking parts, but they are used in the escapes. If your hands are free grabbing the eyes or groin are an option, but he has trained to make sure you cant have that advantage. (If you can grab the groin then you can also use other escapes, he is use to people trying that.)

But you are not stuck, you just need to learn how to get out without getting hurt (Broken limb, Choked to death, dislocated shoulder...). Until the lock is in, its not in, your not done. But if you give him your hands, your done. If you give him your throat, he will choke you. Protect yourself as much as he is protecting himself.

Also keep in mind NHB fighters are strikers also, he will look to ground and pound you if he can. Watch for set ups for his elbows, headbutts and punches, they are allowed in many NHB events and they train for it.

Im not saying you cannot beat them, just dont assume one technique will work. Thats why you have many forms, you have a lot of techniques.

[Darryl]

'Debateable' techniques

Originally posted by Dark Knight
Once on the ground throwing a Tigers Claw is a bad idea, what you are doing is giving him what he wants

Welcome Dark Knight, good to have another different viewpoint.

The effectiveness of a 'Tiger Claw' technique is one that causes a lot of practitioners of the more external arts to raise their eyebrows and politely disagree as to its legitimacy. To avoid an overspill into this thread, I've started another thread to debate the Tiger Claw itself ... http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthre...=&threadid=665

For simplicities sake, for this thread it may be easiest to think of Tiger Claw as an extremely tight grip, tight enough to draw blood and tear skin. Granted, most practitioners do not have this level of force but that does not diminish the effectiveness of the art itself (Tiger Claw).

With this in mind, it is not always a strike. It can be used to grab a limb, body part or other handy extremity and introduce a very effective counter. I am assuming the BJJ practitioner is 'hugging' in close to minimise the striking range and power of his opponent. Even with an upper arm pinned, the grip factor applied by that opponent to the obliques/love handles/inner thigh or any soft target not protected by bone could cause a rapid rethinking of strategy. I'm assuming that everyone here who trains has at some point been pinched or gripped by someone who knows what they are doing and where they are aiming . If we take that level of skill as a base and multiply it, say by two, then that is what we are referring to as Tiger Claw (this description is inaccurate but easier to debate).

If anyone wishes to specifically debate or consider the Tiger Claw, please use the other thread.

[Dark Knight]

Once a grappler (By that I mean someone who is doing BJJ or other fighting that is similar, not a wrestler in general) has you in the mount or side mount he is controlling your arms. If you are in a position to use a tiger claw, you are in a position to use may escapes that will work.

A mounted position is a controlling position. Its best to avoid getting there, and as you are going there you want to get yourself in a position so that he does not have control over you.

Some one posted some time ago that they were fighting a grappler and they reached up with a tiger claw and it stopped the fight.

First, he wasnt much of a grappler because you should not have that room to reach.
Second, once you move your havd away from your body it is going to be in some type of lock.

A common answer to fighting a BJJ is strike the eyes, strike the throat, groin.. but in Vale Tudo only eye strikes are not allowed. So they do throat strikes, but it does not end a fight. They do groin striokes and it is not a fight ender. I am in the Military and met soldiers who lost an eye or more and kept fighting in past wars and conflicts.

If these simple strikes worked, then why study so much more. Every style has many tools that it uses, and none work alone.

AS far as avoiding a takedown, there are many waysof doing it. Randy Couture (A top NHB fighter) said that you need to control the takedown and go down when you want to. That takes training, and its possible, but you need to train to fight against it if you want to avoid it.

What is your point in training? Is it to defeat BJJ? Then you do need to change your training. Boxers fight training opponents that fight like the person they will fight so they are prepared for the style they will encounter. Olympic Athletes train in areas that will be like the area the Olympics will be in so they are prepared for that environment (Tempurature, humidity, altitude...)

If you want to defeat a BJJ you need to specify your training for it, you need to know what works against him.

Or is your training for self defense? The guy you run into in the street is prob not a BJJ Black Belt. There are many styles that are effective in the street. Also BJJ is not a fit-all style. It may not work for everyone, just as Kung Fu styles may not work for everyone. If your goal is street effectivness you need to get over the "us vs. BJJ" and get back to working out hard.

[Darryl]

Discussion Forum

Originally posted by Dark Knight
If your goal is street effectivness you need to get over the "us vs. BJJ" and get back to working out hard.

This a good point and very relevant in all internet discussion forums. I dont view it as an 'us vs them' arguement, in fact quite the opposite. These forums are an ideal opportunity for threads such as these, for people who train different facets of the same thing and for people who are genuinely interested in seeing what else is out there. As mentioned earlier (and frequently in other threads) nothing beats direct experience. What we have here is natural progression.

This is a Kungfu forum, initially to allow global students of the same school to keep in contact and discuss thoughts, practice, techniques, theories etc. The forum has an open door to allow experience and opportunity to flow both ways.

The vast majority of practitioners of any style have very limited experience of other styles. What we have here is practitioners of different styles discussing their techniques, strategies, theories and histories. We dont especially care what system you do, as long as you show respect and consideration to everyone else on the forum.

With that in mind, I first suggested this thread to see who was interested in a direct comparison in styles - not 'them & us' - and the relevant techniques that may or may not work. As before, its an open discussion. It may very well break down into 'grapplers vs strikers', but as long as it stays a relevant and intelligent discussion on the topic at hand, then I dont mind.

There are many different viewpoints in this thread and it is all the more interesting to me because of this. If we (Shaolin Wahnam) were only interested in our own views, we would never have made it an open forum. If we talked instead of training, we would not really have anything to say.

So I welcome all new participants to the forum. All that I ask if that they show polite consideration to all other people here. If you strongly believe that someone is wrong, explain why you feel this. If someone just writes "that is wrong", we defeat the point of being here in the first place.

[JohnnyS]

Firstly, in regard to having weight put on your throat, it is full weight but anyone who has someone put their knee on their throat will usually turn their head so the weight is on the side of the neck. Nevertheless, the front of the throat does get worked considerable, for example Forearm choke where I'm grabbing the guys left lapel with my left hand and my left forearm is driving down into his throat. This goes on both the front and the side of the throat, with the side being preferable as this will cause inconsciousness more quickly, but I'm not picky. In doing this choke from side control you drive all your weight down onto his neck.

Secondly, getting stuck under mount is NOT the same as being hit on the back of the head with a steel bar. There ARE escapes from mount and they are relatively easy to learn. I would not tell anyone to just "give up" no matter what position they are in. To learn these escapes then yes, you need to learn BJJ, but mount escapes are usually taught in the first few lessons. You can even do a search on Google for mount escapes, or buy a book on BJJ to learn them.

[JohnnyS]

A Mount Escape

Here is one way in which I'd escape from mount (there are really only a few common and effective ways, the rest we learn in BJJ are just variations) called Bridging Escape or Umpa. If your opponent has the mount, you need to keep your arms in, elbows on your chest, hands in fists in front of your throat as this will stop you from being choked or armlocked. When your opponent attempts to strike you, you need to buck your hips forward. This will cause him to lose his base and put his hands on the ground. Overhook one of his arms, lock his elbow to your body, hook his foot on the same side as his trapped arm with your foot, bridge up so his head hits the ground and roll to that side. You'll end up in guard but at least now you're on top.

This technique works very well, but obviously the more experienced your opponent, the harder it is to pull off. When your opponent is very good, then you need to use combinations of these escapes to achieve the end result.

[Darryl]

Static Situations

Originally posted by JohnnyS
Secondly, getting stuck under mount is NOT the same as being hit on the back of the head with a steel bar

Very true, but that wasn't my point.

My point is that Kungfu, as a rule, is a stand-up style. Most stand up defences are applied when standing up. What I meant was that waiting untill the mount is applied is not the best time to attempt a counter. I am certainly not saying that if someone achieves the mount, then you give in. Nor am I saying that there are no counters of defences in Kungfu once mounted.

What I am saying is that waiting untill the bar hits you (mount is achieved) is the worst possible time to decide you better dodge the bar (counter the mount).

I would also say it depends on what you are training. Anthony posted earlier saying that if the mount was achieved, he would tap. By this, you could rationalize that Anthony will always tap and never practice any counters or escapes. I know this to be untrue. When we recently met up in Dublin, we practiced counters and taming from the mount - he was mounted, I was clearing his arms to start hitting, or 'pounding'. When sparring with one of the other instructors (Dan), we went to the ground, he got me in a leg lock then let go, not having realised what he had. I then returned the favour and applied the same lock back to him.

What I am saying is the same as what Dark Knight said earlier - that if you wait untill the technique is on before attempting to counter it, you're in trouble. With Anthony, we chose a specific senario and worked on it. With Dan, we were just having some friendly sparring and the opportunity came up.

[Dark Knight]

My point is that Kungfu, as a rule, is a stand-up style. Most stand up defences are applied when standing up.

Ther reason that BJJ and other grapplers have the comments that we are seeinging is because of post from members here on how easy it would be to defeat a BJJ fighter by doing X strike.

Someone posted that a BJJ fighter who was going for a double leg takedown will take up to 5 seconds. From the video that is posted we can see that right after the KF guy kicked it was less than a second and he is going down. The comments dont match up to reality.

But lets discuss the quote I have here, and is it an efficient way of fighting.

Most of the styles were developed based on someones experience of fighting, what works and what does not.

When Ed Parker Developed American Kenpo, he would learn from Master Chow, then go out in the streets and get into fights. From his experience he did not need grappling, or many takedowns. His style was developed based on real world experience against what he ran across.

Now you have to say is going to the ground the best way, also what are the odds of going to the ground. Some people say 90% of all fights go to the ground, some say the opposite. Experience is what is going to show you where a fight will go.

Society changes, what are the odds of running against an armed fighter today compared to 30 years ago. And what are the odds that people will look to tackle you today compared to 30 years ago.

When I was a kid in the early 70's boxing was considered the best self defense. Everyone fought like that. Thats what society thought of as a fight. Today you will most likely get kicked along with punched. And with the advent of NHB events people look to grab and tackle.

IS it effective to be a stand up fighter? Experience will tell. For some it is and others its not.

[Antonius]

The comments dont match up to reality.

The same could be said of the frequent misquoting on forums. The comments rarely match up to reality. I never said that "a BJJ fighter who was going for a double leg takedown will take up to 5 seconds." Here's what I actually said:

"The fact is that a grappler is extremely vulnerable to counter attacks from the moment he begins his shoot until he fully completes his mount. This can take a long time, at least 5-6 seconds. In a fight to the death, 1 second is an eternity. During this time, an internal master has many options, all of which are potentially lethal to his opponent."

Am I wrong? How long does it take you, on average, from the beginning of your shoot to full mount?

I just watched some Gracie videos, and my comment seems to match up to that reality. It looks to me like it takes them anywhere from 4-8 seconds. Maybe my counting doesn't match up to reality.

[Dark Knight]

I'm a big guy, and I was wrong, I was going off of memory, I thought I remembered its as the entire shoot.

But from shoot to full mount may not happen, the final submission or ending strike may come before the mount is ever achieved.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by JohnnyS
Go to www.bullshido.us and download the MMA vs Kung-fu video for an example of what I mean.

Ok. I've seen videos like this before and they are good for strategizing and brainstorming and seeing what was tried, what worked, what didn't and so on.

End of disclaimer 1

I wouldn't know good kung fu if it bit me in the nose. Half the time, I'll watch some televised karate and still be making up my mind while the rest of the room is classifying the person and an expert or an idiot.

End of disclaimer 2

Here's what I saw in the video. The kung fu guy had his hands down giving away his intent. He further telegraphed his kick by shuffling his feet. He kicked way too high.

Hands down + shuffling feet + time it took to kick high = big opening for the other guy to fill with a technique.

The other guy (Marsh, right?) counter kicked the supporting leg. He took advantage of delay between the time the kung fu guy told him "I'm gonna kick you" and when the kick actually landed. He prevented it from landing by disrupting the kung fu guys balance.

To quote some American Civil War general Marsh "got there first with the most."

Once you disrupt the balance, you have another opening. The human body will automatically seek to find balance before doing anything else.

Marsh distrupted the balance further by taking the kung fu guy down to the ground.

Now the balance has been disrupted again and the kung fu guy is disoriented ("What just happened to me?") and in unfamiliar territory. Why do I say unfamiliar? Hey, I do stand up and I remember the first time I got taken down by someone who knew what they were doing.

After that it was only a matter of time.
When you disrupt the balance AND confuse someone by putting them in an unfamiliar situation you can act and they have to react. Not only do they have to react, but they first have to figure out whats going on. All this gives the person in control time to make a bad situation worse.

As a side note, the kung fu guy might have been able to give himself some breathing room by hooking a leg over Marsh's head and pushing. Marsh's face would have been in the guys knee pit, the kung fu guy would have to squeeze Marsh's head between his calf and hamstring and push that leg down. That's the first thing that popped into my head. I think its a long shot. Can any of the grapplers comment?

Another note. If the kung fu guy had tried what I described in a streetfight, he would get the back of his knee bitten.

Truthfully, I couldn't see the kung fu guy trying to do any meaningful striking once he ended up on the ground.

Marsh had more room to punch, but once he had side mount I don't think he had enough room to strike and do major damage.

Mark

[juszczec]

Originally posted by JohnnyS I know this is getting off topic but I'll say one more thing on eye-strikes. If you're standing and attempting an eye-strike, it's pretty much the same technique as a jab. In the middle of a fight, landing a jab to the face is hard, because people are moving around, their more often than not off-balance etc. Now try landing a smaller weapon, the fingers to a smaller target, the eyes.

Here's my final comment on eye strikes thrown in a jab like fashion from long/medium range.

I disagree with Bruce Lee.

Too much room for error and damage to the striker if he drives his finger tips into the bony parts of the forehead/face etc.

I don't know the effects of conditioning on the fingertips or the impact of training with key rings as described by Antonius. I think they'd help a great deal. However, if you've got the eye/hand coordination thru this training to successfully strike the eyes then you'd have to be able to land a jab/palm heel/other hand technique to a larger target. Personally, I say attack the larger target with the stronger striking surface and use this to create an opening so you can close, immobilize the head and attack the eyes from up close.

Mark

[Darryl]

Strength vs Strength

Originally posted by Dark Knight
But from shoot to full mount may not happen, the final submission or ending strike may come before the mount is ever achieved.

The mount seems to be the most famous of all BJJ techniques, so the debate we have so far is strength (mount) vs strength (striking standup). Thats said, I have no doubt that we are using a general rule here, adaptation is always open to both sides. I have no doubt that a competant BJJ'er would flow into striking if the opportunity presented itself & was more advantageous, the same I have no doubts that a BJJ'er may get a nasty shock when discovering the Kungfu exponent can grapple or react in unexpected ways.

JohnnyS,

I still haven't watched the video, but I have seen many clips of alleged Kungfu practitioners being very obviously out classed. Dont get me wrong, there are good & bad practitioners, but just because something has the label of 'Kungfu' doesn't mean it is. I dont see myself as unbeatable, I have ended up losing in the mount (both ways) against BJJ & I've been suplex'd thru the air by a Combat Wrestler, congratulating him as I went. I've also executed some excellent Kungfu techniques against these same people. Both of us were there to learn, same reason I'm typing here.

We're in the old problem of internet debates. I believe its a Gracie maxim that "You must experience it to appreciate it". This goes for both sides. Since we cant actually meet up and experiment, we settle for descriptions.

I fully agree that fighting changes thru the ages and that every art evolves, grows and expands. I feel that Kungfu - genuine Kungfu - evolved in this manner. Howadays, the majority of martial arts have devolved, so has Kungfu. Instead of attempting to figure things out myself, I am trusting in the legacy of my art. Risky? From a competition point of view, probably. From a martial point of view? Not at all.

If I give Kungfu 10 years of dedicated practice and am disappointed - oh well, I'm 10 years older. If I dont give 10 years and am wrong, I am so much poorer. I fully accept that not everyone either has 10 years or is willing to wait, so I try not to get 'hardcore' on people.

Which I am now doing.

So I'll shut up and sit in the corner.

Over here.

Quietly.

[cnholmes]

Darryl,

Do you mean thats the end of "The Sermon on The Mount"?