A Question About Tan Tui

[Mark A]

Not Used and be realistic

Hey Kam,
Actually the back somersault isnt used that much in capoeria. I studied that system for about a year, and not once did I see a back somersault. Gymanistic movement yes, but no somersaulting.

Maybe in the movies though

As for talking about martial arts etc. One of our main tenants is direct experience. So when discussing martial arts etc whilst it is nice to think and discuss. Please be realistic especially about your own abilities and experience.

You have metioned that if everything failed that you would somersault, whilst you are talking about a hypothetical situation, but do you not think that you would fall and hurt your face and then get kicked when you were on the ground etc.

The reason I am saying this is that you are talking about many things and thinking about a fight that might never happen. You know you are missing something vitally important!!

Enjoy your training

Oh and by the way a good defence for the head shot............is move the head.

Have fun

Mark

[Jamie Robson]

'Good Point'

As for talking about martial arts etc. One of our main tenants is direct experience. So when discussing martial arts etc whilst it is nice to think and discuss. Please be realistic especially about your own abilities and experience.

Mark's point here is extremely valid and worth remembering.

Good point Mark,

Jamie

[Rob-B]

Dear all,

Iam currently enjoying a sparring session every week with my one of my classmates. We are currently practicing counters against a boxer (or boxing style figthing)

Before this discussion I wasn`t familiar with '3 Rings Around The Moon`, however I have found video clips of this pattern and will try to apply it in the next sparring session.

I could not however find any information on the pattern 'Dragon Speeds Across Stream'.

I would be very grateful if anyone could provide information on performing this pattern.

Thanks in advance

[Adam Kryder]

A matter of Spirit

Dear Rob,

Sounds like your practice is going well!

To answer your question:

"Dragon Speeds across Stream"

has the same external form as

"Fierce tiger Speeds across Valley"

however, it is done with Dragon Spirit.

You may find a description of this spirit in the

"Complete Book of Zen" By Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit, where he shares the
form and spirit of the set "Dragon in Zen"...

or learn it directly from him or one of his certified instructors.


Best Wishes,

Adam

[student]

using somersault to attack

Dear all,
You will find how different people using somersaults to attack in the following video clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlAmzngmfBk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8DQgr2KNmU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8mEC6vJZw4&feature=related

Kam

[Jamie Robson]

Dear Kam,

Grandmaster Ehsan Shafiq is an expert in somesault attacks, he can apply somersaults in real fighting.

My question is "can you?"
Why spend a long, long time training to do this when in half the time you can develop much safer ways to attack and defend?
For example, how would you adapt if your opponent used a dagger?

With respect,

Jamie

[student]

Dear Sisook or Sibak Jamie,

Thank for your questions, they are quite interesting. I think there is a serious misunderstanding created by my post. In all my previous correspondence – I said that using somersaults as an attack requires a high level of skills. I will probably hurt myself when attempting to do it. I will only attempt to do a somersault if I am very desperate. I did not say that I am learning capoeira or know how to do a somersault. I also pointed out the danger of doing it. You and Sisook or Sibak Mark did not believe that it is possible for someone to use somersaults to attack, as both of you have not seen it applied in real life. It is understandable that both of you demanded proof, which I have already supplied to this thread.

Of course everything I said about the somersault is theory. Until I can apply the somersault in a fight against a determined attacker, then the somersault remained a theory. Please note that your experience and my experience are not the same. You are the expert and I am the beginner. You and Sisook or Sibak Mark are both right that somersaults are not useful in a fight, unless you are an expert. All I am trying to say is that sometime you may be forced into doing some crazy thing in life in order to save your life; even if the chance of it working is almost zero and that you are most likely to hurt yourself in the process. This is because the alternative is death.

Instead of asking me whether I can do the somersault in a fight, which I have already told you that I cannot do it.

Let me ask a question - How much do we value our lives?

If we value our own lives, then would we not do whatever it takes to insure our own survival in a life and death situation and not worry about what other people think of us? Even if the chance of survival is almost zero and we may get seriously injured in the process. However, whether we will actually survive the confrontation is a different matter. For example would we not swallow our own ego and pride and abandon our kung fu skills in order to avoid fighting? We then run as fast as we can in order to get away from a fight. We may get insults from our friends and enemies, but we will live. Or do we prefer winning a fight and end up:

1. getting a criminal record and put into a prison
2. losing our job
3. losing our home
4. losing our love one
5. being sued by our attacker(s) (law suit)
6. worrying about pay back – revenge
7. getting killed or hurt in the fight

I am not being funny here.

The late Sifu Wong Sheun Leung once told a group of audience who had attended one of his seminars that he had won a fight against more than 15 people. Once he got their attention, he then told them that he won the fight by running away! He also told a reporter in Australia that sometime the best way to win a fight was to run away. If Sifu Wong Sheun Leung could abandon his Wing Chun skills and run away from a fight, so can I.
Some of my friends and me had run away from fights before they even started, because we knew the consequence of fighting! We received all kinds of names calling and insults.

To explain my points in my previous posts, I will use the following three examples (a cornered tiger has to jump over a wall):

1) The wife of the founder of Guardian Angel wrote in one of her books that she was beaten up severely by three men one night. They were going to rape her. She decided that she did not want to be raped, so she bite one of the rapists’ private parts as hard as she could. She lost consciousness afterward and ended up in a hospital.
a) Had she considered that she might not had enough strength to hurt the would be rapist or would the biting work?
b) Had she considered that the other two men would continue to rape or kill her after seeing what she did to their friend?
c) Had she considered that if she let them rape her, they would let her live?
d) Had she considered that if she would infected by AIDS or any other diseases from the flesh and blood of the would be rapist?
e) Had she considered that if the rapist had AIDS, she might be dead in the future or becoming permanently ill for rest of her life?
f) Had she practised biting before? I do not know the answer.
g) Had she considered that the public might called her a cannibal and taunted her for rest of her life?
Mike Tyson was called a cannibal after biting part of Evander Holyfield’s ear off during their world championship boxing re-match. He paid Evander Holyfield three million dollars out of court settlement.
h) Had she considered that she might have developed a taste for human flesh in the future?
I) Has she considered that her attackers might sue her for millions of dollars in damages?

I very much doubt that she had considered any of those questions before she did the biting.
If you are in her situation what will you do?

(Biting is used by street thugs, some self defence clubs, JKD and traditional Chinese kung fu. The late Sifu Kwan Tak Hing taught his students to bite their opponent's throat in the horse fist style.)

2) Several months ago in Germany, there was a Turkish couple who threw their baby out of a window during a fire. The baby was caught by the crowd outside the building. Under normal circumstances the person who threw the baby out of the window would have been charged with attempted murder. However, in this case they were trying to save their baby from being burnt alive.
a) Had they considered that they might be rescued? (Fortunately, they were also rescued)
b) Had they considered that their actions would result in the death or seriously injuring their baby, if no one from the crowd decided to catch their baby?
c) Had they considered that they might be charged with attempted murder and put into prison?
e) Had they considered that they might be responsible for the death of their own baby, if they had survived the fire?
f) Who was going to look after their baby, if they died?

If you are in their situation what will you do, especially you do not know that you will survive the fire?

One British man did throw two of his children out of the balcony of a hotel in Greece after having an argument with his former wife, who wanted to divorce him (I do not remembered the exact details). The children ended up dead! The man is trying to escape justice by claiming to have suffered from a mental problem, as his family tree contains many mentally ill relatives.

3) If you live on the top floor of a 6 story flat and there is a fire. You can only escape from being burn alive is by jumping out of a window and onto the ground below. Would you not jump, even if there is no safety net or helpers on the ground?

You may end up:
a) Dead
b) Become a cripple for rest of your life
c) Seriously injuring yourself by jumping.
d) There may be a very small chance that you will live, without suffering from serious injuries.

You will never know the outcome until you have actually done the jump. However, you will definitely end up dead if you stay inside the building.


What will you do if you are in this situation?

If any one insists on realism, instead of theories than please consider the following:
1) Would you bite your training partners’ private parts as hard as you can during training, just to prove that biting will work in real life?
2) Would you deliberately set your own house on fire and then throw your own baby out of the window, just to test the theory whether some strangers on the street would attempt to save your baby from death or injuries?
3) Would you deliberately jump out of a window from the top floor of a 6 story flat under normal condition, if there is no danger to your life?

Are those examples not desperate situations that you can only test out your solutions or theories when they actually happen to you?

My training in shaolin kung fu is very limited. I had only attended Sifu Joan’s two chi kung courses and the tan tui course last year. My kung fu skills is like an one month old baby compared to large giants like many of you here. It is very poor. Sigung keep on reminding people that if you do not know how to use your kung fu in a fight than it is a hinder and a burden, but kung fu is very effective fighting arts for those who can use it.
Let me ask another question if you are in a life and death situation and cannot use kung fu techniques very well, would you attempt to use any of your kung fu technique to save yourself, knowingly that will led to your own death? Or would you abandon it and use other techniques that are more natural to you and hope that you will survive?

Is it not that an organ seeking kick is designed to kill or seriously maim your opponent? If a stranger uses an organ seeking kick to attack me outside the martial arts school, then is he or she not trying to kill me? If some one intended to kill me with an organ seeking kick at this particular moment, then I will have less than 0.1 second to respond. Do you not consider that this is a very desperate and dangerous situation for me? Do you honestly think that I will have the time to think of an alternative answer than to follow my first thought that come into my head, since my kung fu level is very low at the moment? I am sure that there are hundreds of more effective and efficient answers than my own answer of using somersaults, but I do not know any of those answers at this particular moment. I got two choices either trying to save myself by doing the somersault and hope that I will survive OR ending up dead by debating with myself which is the most efficient method to save my life (doing nothing). Does it really matter to me which technique I am going use or whether I will hurt myself while doing the somersault, if I only got less than 0.1 second to deliver it or die? What would you like me to do instead?

Regarding to the dagger – I will run as fast as I can and hoped that my attacker is not a knife thrower. If I fight him or her, then I will most likely end up dead or seriously wounded, due to my very low kung fu skills.

(There is a football game in South East Asia that is similarly to volley ball. The players use their feet to hit the ball over the net, instead of their hands. They too do backward somersaults to hit the ball and then landed with their feet on the ground. You will find those video clips in youtube.)

With respect

Kam

[Alex McArdell]

Dear Kam

That's a very detailed post showing why it can be a good idea to do something crazy. But for me that's still what it is. Crazy. Desperation is NOT a reason to do a sommersault. It may be a reason to run, to scream, to go beserk, to grab a weapon. But a sommersault? Why?
The fact that you're a beginner makes it even more insane. I bet even Master Eshan Shafiq would think twice before doing it in a streetfight on concrete.
The people you mentioned doing 'crazy' things, still had method in their madness. The thrown baby was caught. The attacked woman fought off the rapists in the only way she could think of.
The sommersault is a gymnastic manouvere. Yes it can be used offensively, but maybe you should just drop a banana skin on the floor and hope the attacker slips on it! Sorry to sound harsh but I honestly think that would have a better chance of success.
Jamie is a very practical man and gives good advice. Don't give up your feet. They work best on the ground.
All the best.
Alex

[Jimbeaux]

Let's be careful

This thread makes me want to make a point:

We need to be careful about what and how we write.
But we must also be careful how we take meaning from what others have written.

We need to consider that there are many native and non-native speakers, and more importantly, many cultures represented in this forum. As all the language is typed, we don't always know if someone is smiling, joking, angry or aggressive. We miss many subtleties like intonation, facial expression, gestures and eye contact.

What I'm trying to say is that others may not read your message in the same tone that you tried to write it in.
Take this intro to an email written by a non-native speaker for example:
"For your information, I resent your message."
I often show this to my business English students and they have no idea why this can sound very rude.
Depending on how you interpret the intonation, "For your information" can sound like, "Let me tell you something you jerk," or “I would like to tell you something.”
And "resent" could be interpreted as "sent again" or "I've taken offense to your message." (pronounced: rezent)
A better choice would be: "This is just to let you know, that I've re-sent your message." or "FYI, I re-sent your message."
(Funny but the short form "FYI" cannot be interpreted in a bad way.)

So, just take a second to consider how others might interpret your message. This also applies to native speakers, because the multi-cultural awareness is just as important, like knowledge of the traditional Asian student-master relationship.
Also, when you read a message, think to yourself "Does he/she really mean to sound so aggressive, or am I just taking it that way?"

I think most people here (including me!) are taking this thread as a beginner (like me) lecturing his seniors, some of which are sifus.
And if this is the case, it certainly is not OK or respectful.
But maybe it isn't really meant in that way, I don't know.
Just my two cents...

(Oh no, I forgot! Idioms can be very difficult for non-natives!
Just kidding, I am quite impressed with the English of my international brothers and sisters here on the forum.)

[Jamie Robson]

Dear Kam,

You can learn a lot from reading how people behave on this forum, many talk without pausing for thought.

My advice for you is to imagine we are sat down at a table, discussing this topic, face to face.
So far, you have either ignored me, corrected me or put fourth a barrage of unrelated and unnecessary facts.

So, I will no longer take part in this thread and can only wish I had as much time as you to write such long posts.

Best Wishes,

Jamie

[student]

Apologise

Dear Sisook or Sibak Jamie,
Please can you accept my apologise for any misunderstanding in my message. It was not my intention to lecture you or anyone. I thought that I had not expressed myself clearly in my previous posts. I was trying to explain to you the reasons for the misunderstanding in my previous posts, as to why I would use the somersault as a very last resort. I was hoping you would advice a beginner like myself who has no knowledge of how to counter the organ seeking kick. I had read my post several times and then got two native English friends to read it to see if I had made any mistakes. They both told me that I was being polite and showed respect to you. Therefore, it is a very big surprise to me that I had unintentionally offended you or anyone else here. Obviously, my friends and I need to re-work on our communication skills.

Sorry about this. I apologise to anyone who may have been offended by my post.

Thanks for all the help you have given to me.
Kam

[Jamie Robson]

Dear Kam,

I understand and accept your apology, thank you.

Best Wishes,

Jamie

[sonwukong]

isn't the purpose of drawing the fist back in the tan tui sequence to effect the pattern "kwan peng carries insignia" in order to deflect a punch amongst other things? that's always what I thought and now I'm curious.