Finding training partners

[AlexBaranosky]

Dear fellow Wahnam members,

I want to excel at kung-fu.

To do this I feel that it is best to find sparring methodology partners so that I can practice with them twice a week, or more if I have time. I am unsure how to go about doing this.

One approach is to find students of other arts and come up with 16 sequences that parallel the Wahnam ones and train those with them. This approach requires finding students of other arts that are open to this approach.

Another approach is to find Wahnam students locally. I do plan to meetup with Matt Fenton, but we are only usually able to meet up every two to three weeks or so. Other than Matt, I am not aware of any other local Wahnam kungfu students.

A third possible approach is to move to a city where there is already a Wahnam school with plenty of people to practice with, this is challenging for its own reasons: Gainesville is 2000 miles away from here, and Europe is on another continent

Do you have any advice to help me be able to practice with other people 2-4 times per week? It appears to be a challenge, but I firmly believe I can make it happen, with perseverance.

All the Best,
Alex

[Andy]

Hi Alex Sihing,

Before I started learning with Wahnam I was not really aware of how much traditional kung fu was going on in the UK, indeed all over the world!

If I were you I would find a school in your area/city - i.e. kung fu, taiji, bagua, xinyi - (not worrying too much about their internal or external credentials at this stage) and make friendly enquiries for training partners.

A lot of these schools are quite small, and maybe only train once or twice a week, so their students may be open to some friendly training with a kung fu practitioner of a different style. If there is enough interest you could then look into hiring a hall or meeting in a public park. Internet boards might be another way to meet other local kung fu enthusiasts.

An alternative route to take would be to get one of your existing friends/family and train them up as your sparring partner (assuming any of them would be interested )!

Best

Andy

[Antonius]

I do plan to meetup with Matt Fenton, but we are only usually able to meet up every two to three weeks or so.

If you can meet up with Matt every 2-3 weeks regularly for a few years, then that should be enough. Would it be better to have more sparring time? Sure? Can you still get good at Kung Fu sparring only once a month? Yes, if you practice on your own.

[AlexBaranosky]

Thank you for your ideas Sihing and Sidai,

It is comforting to know that even practicing with a partner once a month, done with aims and objectives, can be enough.

That said, I am still going to consider doing some local networking here in Boston to see if I can find some others to train with

Alex

[Matt F.]

Hey Alex,

Good news - the snow is pretty much all gone from the park, and the ground is getting nice and dry! Should only be a week or two until we can start rockin'.

Just a couple suggestions for when you're looking for local training partners. I would suggest that you say, "I am a traditional Kung fu student looking for someone to train with on one-step, two-step, three-step, etc sparring drills. No contact, lower intensity - more to practice timing and technique than to see how many times we can hit each other."

When the majority of people think "sparring," they think lots of hitting, pads, fuller contact, black eyes, etc. But most schools also train sparring drills that often are lighter (or no) contact, and less intense. I think if you approach it like that, more people will know what you are looking for, and may want to practice with you.

However, I would also do a personal check and make sure you're ok with getting hit. I'm certainly not suggesting getting hit is a good idea, but to keep the practice friendly, you've got to be ready to react calmly to getting popped. Most martial artists train self-offense, not self-defense. They don't think trading punches is anything but normal. Be prepared to kindly remind your partner that you'd like very light/no contact.

If they can't control the contact, then of course you can stop training with them. As you know, Lifting the Sky and a good chi flow after the training should go a long way to counter any reckless strikes.

-Matt

[Andy]

Great points from Sifu Anthony and Sifu Matt,

Particularly about making a difference between sparring and "friendly sequence drills" for the others!

Indeed the hardest part would be finding people who would be happy to train cooperatively and without ego, so that any meet doesnt degenerate into a tough man contest.

I think you should have some luck amongst other traditional stylists. Sifu's books are popular so there may be some practitioners out there interested in learning more.

If it works out you could end up with a really fruitful learning experience for all parties - your techniques, combinations and strategies vs the techniques, combinations and strategies of other traditional styles such as xinyi or wing chun would be amazing IMO. Could be very rewarding if you find other traditional enthusiasts with a good attitude to cooperative training...

let us know how you get on...

Andy

[Chiahua]

Yang Jwing Ming is based out of Jamaica Plain, maybe you could check on the YMAA forum and see if there are any willing victims from that school. In fact it would be fascinating to see what sort of sparring methodology they have...

[drunken boxer]

On this topic of finding sparring partners, I found this part of Joan Sije's latest post very interesting:

For those of you on the 30 opponent programme, just practice your sequence for 3 months, slowly at first getting picture perfect form, then flowing and later the energy flow will help increase your speed. Do not begin with speed first. Sifu has repeated this over and over and over and over again, so I am just mentioning it here too!

It is not advisable to go and train other arts, just use your Kungfu or Tai Chi Chuan. Practice even for just 10 minutes each day and in three months you will see a great difference in your sequence. Only then begin to seek out sparring partners.

(From this thread: http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/sho...-Festival-2015)

I had heard from a high level source that Sifu said it was not necessary, or even advisable to join up with other classes as part of the 30 opponent programme. I thought this meant other kungfu classes as well, though I am now not sure.

The idea being that if you join the class, you will end up practising some of what they practise, and then end up taking some of that into your sparring, thereby diluting your kungfu.

I believe this advice is specific to the 30 opponent programme, ie the policy has always been that it is fine to practise with other arts or schools, as many of us have done and still do. (If anyone disagrees, we could debate that on a new thread maybe.)

On that premise then, I wonder if anyone fancies sharing their experience of how they have come to meet other sparring partners?

Personally I can not imagine approaching a kickboxing, boxing or mma school in northern ireland and inviting them for dinner as I've heard suggested! Either this is a mental block on my part, or I think it is a cultural thing maybe, I don't think I'd get a good response!

On the other hand I worry if I just turned up and asked to spar, this would antagonise them and they would spar harder, and nominate better fighters, than if I befriended them first.

Of course this wouldn't be a problem if I was good enough, I wouldn't have to worry. But this is part of the process of becoming good, so I want to meet some lesser skilled opponents first.

My idea was to use some people I know from the schools I am already familiar with, except none of them live near me at the minute. So I thought, for convenience, I could befriend some relatively local schools such as wing chun or jujitsu, by attending a few classes and so forth, and befriend them and arrange sparring in that way. That seems not to be advised, so I wondered if others had any experiences to share on how they have managed to find people to spar with? Ideally I want to hear about experiences rather than speculation, but of course it would still be interesting to hear your ideas, and in my case I too have only a couple of experiences of sparring with boxers and mostly speculation myself so it's all good.

[drunken boxer]

Don't all reply at once now

I also wanted to ask another question relating to the same activity. I have been trying to come up with a sequence, or find a sequence I like, for the purposes of using in sparring. I played about with a few different things and thought I was happy with one. But tonight I finally started the practise proper, to practise it the recommended number of times, and I got disheartened halfway through because I felt so open, I suddenly noticed so many gaps that a tall boxer I thought could exploit.

(I have been trying to use one from Xingyi. I also wanted to specifically select something that could work with gloves on, as I imagine any sparring I do will involve gloves, similar to the videos posted recently of Chris, Mauro and others sparring in Germany with the kickboxer / jkd guys.)

So I thought I was back to the drawing board. And my plan was to ask the forum, if anyone fancies sharing what sequences they have used for this endeavour, maybe I can copy something that has worked for someone else? Or is part of the training to think through the sequences for ourselves.

I was thinking afterwards of some transitional things I could put in the sequence to cover myself more. I also felt when I was practising it that some bits of Northern Praying Mantis as taught to me by Sifu in Switzerland might be good to put in, but I dunno if mixing xingyi and praying mantis like this is a good idea. Also thought of stripping it down to less patterns. Feeling a bit better about it now that I think I have a shorter version of it in mind.

[David Langford]

When I practice combat sequences from Taming Tiger and Tiger Crane I always refer back to our toolbox of foundation skills, especially Safe coverage. They form the basis of our fighting system.

"Right timing
Right spacing
Flowing movement and force
Right judgement
Fast decision
Instantaneous change
Footwork adjustment
Safe coverage
Flowing attack
Pressing attack"

I've noticed that if anything from the list is lacking then things wont work as well. For example if safe coverage is lacking in my practice, then I would likely feel open and exposed, or if Right timing and spacing is lacking, then my attacks cannot land.

[drunken boxer]

Thanks for the chat about this David, the items on your list are all worth further reflection, covering was the main thing I needed to think about more I think. I don't think I needed to add this, so much as think about it more and realise where the covering already exists through proper use of the guard hand and so forth. I think. Time will tell, ie if I get popped when I try to spar this or not!

Having shortened the sequence a good bit I also feel better about it.

Also by halfway through my repetitions the chi was flowing well, and I had the urge to flow on into spontaneous follow up attacks. I resisted until my last repetition and then I just let myself flow, it was very enjoyable, lots of patterns from xingyi and praying mantis flowed out, as that's what I've been mostly practising I suppose.

[Matt F.]

Personally I can not imagine approaching a kickboxing, boxing or mma school in northern ireland and inviting them for dinner as I've heard suggested! Either this is a mental block on my part, or I think it is a cultural thing maybe, I don't think I'd get a good response!

On the other hand I worry if I just turned up and asked to spar, this would antagonise them and they would spar harder, and nominate better fighters, than if I befriended them first.

Of course this wouldn't be a problem if I was good enough, I wouldn't have to worry. But this is part of the process of becoming good, so I want to meet some lesser skilled opponents first.

I think an honest, open approach would probably serve you well.

Obviously, I don't know the cultural/social vibe in your area, but around here most martial arts schools are open to people observing a class. After the class, when the instructor isn't focused on teaching, you could introduce yourself to him/her, and tell them who you are, what you do, and what you're looking for.

For instance, "Hi, my name is Matt, and I practice Shaolin Kungfu. My instructor is not local, and the majority of my time is spent with solo practice. I'm hoping to find some sparring partners for a bit of hands on practice. I was wondering if you had any regularly scheduled sparring classes/nights that I might attend. I don't really know how to judge my skill level, so if I could start with a beginner group with light contact and go from there, that would be ideal. Or maybe one of your advanced students could spar with me, in a friendly manner, to help judge my current level. I'm very happy with my Shaolin training, and I'm not really interested in training a different system, just trying to find some friendly, skilled people with which to network/train/workout."

I think that approach would be good, and suggest that you are not out to prove anything or challenge anyone. You may have to try a couple schools before you find a good fit. I also think that approach might work with MMA/boxing gyms, but I don't have any experience with those. I would think that a humble guy, wanting to make sure his CMA works, would be welcome in a MMA group. I think it would be seen as refreshing, rather than the typical "what I practice is too deadly for MMA" approach that many seem to take.

With that said, one person's idea of "light" contact may be drastically different than another's. So, observing a class/workout first, might be a good litmus test for the group.

-Matt

[Matt F.]

So I thought I was back to the drawing board. And my plan was to ask the forum, if anyone fancies sharing what sequences they have used for this endeavour, maybe I can copy something that has worked for someone else? Or is part of the training to think through the sequences for ourselves.

I was thinking afterwards of some transitional things I could put in the sequence to cover myself more. I also felt when I was practising it that some bits of Northern Praying Mantis as taught to me by Sifu in Switzerland might be good to put in, but I dunno if mixing xingyi and praying mantis like this is a good idea. Also thought of stripping it down to less patterns. Feeling a bit better about it now that I think I have a shorter version of it in mind.

One of my favorite sequences for sparring goes a little something like this -

(Left foot forward in bow and arrow stance, hands up w/ left hand forward)
1. left hand white snake shoots venom
2. right hand black tiger steals heart
3. left hand prescious duck swims through lotus
4. right hand/foot option -
A: dark dragon draws water
B: hang a golden star at corner
C: chop the hua mountain
D: double bows tame tiger
E: white horse presents hoof
F: naughty monkey kicks tree
G: whatever pattern comes out when I'm in full flow mode

I like the opening pattern because it can be used with open hand, leopard strike, or closed fist. And it can be a jab, feint, or just used as bridging to connect and begin to cover the opponent's arms. Each striking hand is brought back to protect my head and/or direct the opponent's arms as the next strike is coming out. The first pattern or two helps to get the opponent's hand up and expose their lower abdomen/groin for striking.

The last pattern I like to practice variations of, because I think that after a few patterns in a sequence, it becomes really difficult (for me, anyway) to know how the opponent will react to the first 3 strikes, and where the opponent will be. So, I practice a pattern for if they are close with hands high, close with hands low, really close and right on top of me, further away, or if they moved off to the side.

This string of patterns is easy to use while moving/sliding forward, and some of the last patterns can really cover some distance if required.

Also, all of these patterns can be done wearing gloves, or altered slightly to be used with gloves. So, once the gloves go on, I don't find myself at a stand-still.

-Matt

[drunken boxer]

Thanks for the replies Matt, they are good ones.

First of all, I think your suggestions would work for kungfu schools, there are not many reachable for me, but I will consider this.

"Hi, my name is Matt, and I practice Shaolin Kungfu. My instructor is not local, and the majority of my time is spent with solo practice. I'm hoping to find some sparring partners for a bit of hands on practice. I was wondering if you had any regularly scheduled sparring classes/nights that I might attend. I don't really know how to judge my skill level, so if I could start with a beginner group with light contact and go from there, that would be ideal. Or maybe one of your advanced students could spar with me, in a friendly manner, to help judge my current level. I'm very happy with my Shaolin training, and I'm not really interested in training a different system, just trying to find some friendly, skilled people with which to network/train/workout."

When I was in London, I sort of did this with other kungfu folks.

I also think that approach might work with MMA/boxing gyms, but I don't have any experience with those. I would think that a humble guy, wanting to make sure his CMA works, would be welcome in a MMA group.

I don't personally think it would work with boxing or mma clubs, for the reasons I said earlier, but I would be happy to be proved wrong if anyone else does this with boxing/mma clubs. Still don't know if I could bring myself to do it though, based on previous experiences.

Though I am at a current misfortune with geography, I suppose I am fortunate in other ways. Though Sifu said that someone didn't need to join another class/school/style and start training their way, I am fortunate that I have been involved with other schools and training other styles already since before I even started training with Shaolin Wahnam, so I still have friends from those, and in turn those friends have friends from various styles so I had a couple of ideas how I could get some sparring partners from there.

Basically, I now think there are several ways to find sparring partners, and that the more difficult thing will not be finding them, but sparring with them!

[drunken boxer]

(Left foot forward in bow and arrow stance, hands up w/ left hand forward)
1. left hand white snake shoots venom
2. right hand black tiger steals heart
3. left hand prescious duck swims through lotus
4. right hand/foot option -
A: dark dragon draws water
B: hang a golden star at corner
C: chop the hua mountain
D: double bows tame tiger
E: white horse presents hoof
F: naughty monkey kicks tree
G: whatever pattern comes out when I'm in full flow mode

So does this mean you always do 1, 2 and 3, and then for 4 you may optionally use any of your patterns from A-G, ie sometimes you do 1-2-3-C, sometimes 1-2-3-F etc?

For:
1. I like white snake shoots venom as an opener. I think this can also deflect a punch if used in a certain way as well as striking.
2&3. I have never been able to successfully land a black tiger or precious duck on anyone, because of my short reach and my opponents invariably longer reach, I have always been caught with a jab or cross at this point. I think my problem is covering, something that I hope to explore in the sequence I am using at the minute, though I think this is more difficult with sanshou gloves on. I've considered buying MMA gloves. I think at the minute I might be able to cover, but it would be more like a block, however maybe that is ok to start with, better than getting punched in the face at least.

I like the opening pattern because it can be used with open hand, leopard strike, or closed fist. And it can be a jab, feint, or just used as bridging to connect and begin to cover the opponent's arms. Each striking hand is brought back to protect my head and/or direct the opponent's arms as the next strike is coming out. The first pattern or two helps to get the opponent's hand up and expose their lower abdomen/groin for striking.

I like the sound of all this.

Also, all of these patterns can be done wearing gloves, or altered slightly to be used with gloves. So, once the gloves go on, I don't find myself at a stand-still.

I think this is very valuable seeing as:
1. Most external sparring partners want to use gloves I think, for example the sparring that Sifu put on his website lately in Germany.
2. In sanshou and sanda tournaments gloves are used.

I definitely think covering is an area I need to focus on for a breakthrough.