Chinese Taoist Martial Arts Association query

[Frederick_Chu]

Hello everyone! Long time, no post.

I am keenly interested in learning martial arts and qigong, and it just so happens that an organization nearby (well "nearby" being a three hour drive ), the Chinese Taoist Martial Arts Association, offers Baguazhang, which I have read about in a few books and on Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit's excellent Q&A series.

My questions are: (a) Has anyone had experience with this school? and (b) Do they teach authentic martial arts and qigong?

I have heard (and sadly realized) that opportunities to learn authentic gongfu in person are extremely rare, and that Baguazhang is itself an extremely rare martial art outside of select locations. If this is authentic, I want don't want to let this chance pass me up.

I humbly ask the forum their educated and informed opinions so that I can make as informed decision as possible regarding the CTMAA.

Thank you very much for your time!

[Michael S]

Hello Mr. Chu,

First let it be known that I am by no means an authority on martial arts nor am I in any way affiliated with the Shaolin Wahnam organization. I'm just a guy who loves kung fu.

Now that that's out of the way, I would say go for it. Although I'm personally not in favor of the use of colored belts/sashes I think this school really has their act together. I also watched the video of that Pakuazhang teacher and was impressed. One of the ways to pick out good Pakuazhang from nonsense is to watch how comfortable the practitioner is in their stances and that Sifu Lin seemed to have the mix of agility and stability you can only achieve through serious practice.

What I find worrisome is that they mention stance training on their page on Pre-Heaven Power training but not in the Xing Yi page (they would want to teach you Xing Yi before Pakua). They could very well have it and just not thought they needed to put it on the page but I would be wary of someone who teaches Xing Yi without stance training.

Kind regards and happy training,
Mike

PS: Again, I am not an authority. My writing style often misleads people into taking me for one but I know very little.

[Matt F.]

Dear Frederick,

On the link you provided, they talked about Pre-Heaven Power method, and gave a link to another site that has more information. Here is a quote from that second site.

The Pre-Heaven Power Method draws from an evolving body of knowledge about optimal body mechanics, developed by Master Pan and based on his study of human anatomy and his interaction with students. Master Pan has passed this knowledge down to many of his disciples and has established the fact that this knowledge and use of optimal body mechanics, including the fajin techniques, can be passed down to students through a step-by-step procedure. Thus the correct methodology for acquiring internal power is no longer a mystery but a teachable subject, just like any other discipline.

The method for exerting power, or fajin, is an important aspect of body mechanics and is considered an important skill in every style of martial art. Traditionally, a practitioner's skill in fajin has depended primarily on his or her individual talents and the student learns simply by trying to imitate the fajin movements of his/her teacher. Even though there are some methods to train one’s fajin ability, those methods are usually limited to only a few movements. Moreover, internal power has often mistakenly been considered to be the mysterious Qi power. In the past, according to the literature, some masters were able to generate amazing power and rebound opponent several feet away. However, due their lack of knowledge, students and teachers usually explained this away with “Qi power.” Consequently, students could spend their whole lives trying to develop such power in their fajin movements without any success.

Another common mistake is to think that practicing qigong can increase the internal power. While it is true that practicing qigong will increase your energy, qigong alone will never give a student the power demonstrated by a skillful Pre-Heaven Power Method practitioner, since the determining factor in the production of such power is structure rather than Qi

To me, it is clear that this school falls under the category of those that feel internal force is a term that is used to describe proper body mechanics. This is a very popular belief. You will find that Shaolin Wahnam students and teachers do not share this belief. We have experienced internal force to be more than just body mechanics, and have found that practicing qigong can and will increase internal force.

I have never visited the school in question, or met the instructors. I can only report what I found on the websites.

-Matt

[Michael S]

To me, it is clear that this school falls under the category of those that feel internal force is a term that is used to describe proper body mechanics. This is a very popular belief. You will find that Shaolin Wahnam students and teachers do not share this belief. We have experienced internal force to be more than just body mechanics, and have found that practicing qigong can and will increase internal force.
-Matt

Matt is dead on, in my opinion. I suppose I am somewhat biased towards you studying something rather than nothing because I personally am studying an external martial art as it is what's available to me right now. My opinion is that if there is nothing better available you could benefit a lot from going there, even if the commute is murder.

One other thing, though, I remember I was once reading an old thread on this forum where a student was talking about learning Taijiquan from a man who was at first his painting teacher and happened to live three minutes away from him. That you should keep your eyes open is what I'm getting at .

Kind regards,
Mike

[Zhang Wuji]

I should add that it is not Shaolin Wahnam's policy to comment on other schools. I am sorry this does not seem very helpful but as my Sifu has always said, the search for the master or the genuine art is itself very rewarding.

Also, it is not accurate to make any informed judgement simply based on a perusal of any website. Why not take a look for yourself, since it is only 3 hours away?

[Irina]

Dear all

I would like to add something to the topic of searching for a genuine master.

I have learned from many schools and persons, some of them called themselves masters, some instructors. And I am confident that they all helped me to realise how genuine my Sifu is. Without their help I would not have been able to recognise him and to realise what I need. And perhaps they helped me to realise that I am looking for a true teacher.

I believe, that a student must grow first before he or she finds his or her true teacher. I have not wasted my time by learning from others. I was just preparing the ground.

I also saw that persons who have come across a true teacher by chance did not see it this way and went on course jumping.

I am convinced that finding a teacher is a carmic necessity. And the quest for a teacher is also carmic growth.

In terms of distance I can say now that my Sifu lives around 9000 km away and I do not regard this distance as far, because what I learn in three days gives me enough material to practice on my own for many months.

And last but not least, from my MBA I can tell that to do something is always better than to do nothing (unless in wu wei :-) and both activities take the same amount of time.

So good luck and happy chi flow.

[Frederick_Chu]

Thank you all very much for your replies! Regardless of what happens when I visit the school, it will have been a learning experience.

I have been on the fence about visiting lately because of my current commitments (I guess from the inside, everything seems to loom large, like classwork, finances, and being the only one in the household with a car). I shall put some time aside to visit this school after my next paycheck comes in (gas money!)

I eagerly await the chance to give my report.

[Frederick_Chu]

Finally went!

Oh my, it's been nearly a whole year since this thread? Talk about overdue, I can finally make my report! Finally taking the first step to visit Sifu's Flowing Zen 101 seminar back in July has seemed to remove a massive mental hurdle that stood in the way of wanting to do what I want to do.

Well, I finally went to check out the Chinese Taoist Martial Arts Association. It was actually my mother pushed me to go since she knows I love kung fu. I went this past Saturday to meet the Sifu of the school and to enroll in Baguazhang classes. I'll be making the commute once a month.

The space is very nice, having two wide open rooms. There is a partial divider between the rooms which is covered with a mirrored surface and is thus very helpful for keeping an eye on proper form. One corner was dedicated to holding a large number of weapons (spears, swords, waist-knives, and deer-hook-knives were some of the ones I recognized). I even noticed in a side room that there were Lion and Dragon Dance costumes and instruments!

The class began with a salute to the Sifu (putting the palm and fist together) followed by "warming up" with stretches, especially to loosen the waist, legs, and hips. I noticed many similarities to the Art of Flexible Legs here, though with added arm movements.

Then everyone broke up to practice whatever it was they were working on; some of the newer-but-older-than-me students went off to practice Circle Walking and various Palm Postures while one of the advanced students was working on a two stick form. I was shown by Sifu (Lin) how to properly hold myself upright (apparently my hip was sticking out too far which I didn't notice at all) and then practiced walking forward and backwards. After a bit of this, he gave me a bright orange Gatorade bottlecap to use as the center of circle walking practice and showed me, over the course of the hour (the class ran from 2pm-3pm) three of the Palms, telling me to practice them whilst circle walking. He further showed me one or two applications of each

One of the ah-ha! moments that really make me believe in the importance of a competent instructor or master in transmitting the art (obvious to everyone here, I'm sure, but I'm just coming out of a little over two years of self-study; I'm easy to amuse and amaze ) was when Sifu showed me the posture Great Roc Spreads Wings. When I did the posture, he looked at me, shook his head, and said, "This posture has at least six forms of energy in it. The piercing palm, the dropping elbows, others! You must manifest them, not just put your hands up!" Just by thinking of these "energies" as he called them made the form feel completely different; the posture "became alive" for lack of a better word. I was astounded!

After an hour of circle walking with the three palms I was shown (one of the mid-level students and I were having fun coordinating our respective circle walking so that we didn't run into each other), Sifu called the class and we ended the class with a salute.

I then chatted with Sifu for a few minutes after the class. He showed me a few things in store for me in Baguazhang, such as trapping footwork with the toe in-step, getting behind me after he asked me to throw some punches at him (Black Tiger Steals Heart and Fierce Tiger Speeds Through Valley), and some of the body-strikes he used (such as knocking me with his shoulder or hip as he circled around past me). His footwork is excellent, and when he "opened the way" to demonstrate some signature Baguazhang attacks, his arms felt like strong wooden rods.

He also told me a little bit about the Pre-Heaven Power Method; not so much how it works, but that I would "learn a whole new way to fa-jing." He said he'd show me, and we both took up a Stream Character stance in front of one another, and he told me to press down on his arms to try and move him. With a seemingly simple lifting of his wrists and forearms, I suddenly found myself a few inches straight up in the air. He demonstrated again and I tried to pay attention to his breathing and muscles; I noticed that he did not tense his muscles at all. His lifting/tossing me into the air seemed as inevitable as an elevator or trampoline sending me upwards.

He then told me to push him, and I went into Bow Arrow to push him, first straight back, then down, and then upwards. He didn't move an inch from my pushing him, but after my third push, he rebounded me, sending me straight back a few feet. He said it was because the force of my push "went down to the ground and then bounced back towards" me. Again, I didn't feel his muscles tensed and he didn't seem out of breath or anything; I was very surprised and thanked him for the demonstration. He chuckled and shook his head afterwards, saying, "Can't believe you drove three hours just to learn Bagauzhang!" He has a very friendly and easy laugh, which got me laughing too.

My brother (biological brother, that is, and ten years my younger) watched the class, but alas, wasn't interested in enrolling (he's quite sedentary, unfortunately; in fact, my brother going was a subtle ploy by my mother to try and get him interested in some sort of moving activity). Ah well, we can't all be kung fu fanatics.

So all in all, I had a very pleasurable experience. The school doesn't set off any alarm bells for me. For instance, there's no massive trophy case in the front hall, nor does the sifu dress in military fatigues and talk aggressively (saw that in Chicago a few times...) We'll see what happens the next time I go in the middle of November.

edit: I forgot to mention! I remembered Sigung's excellent Q&A, June 2004, Part B, Question 2, mentioned the "secret" of Baguazhang internal force training, holding the Eight Palm Postures as stance training. Since the cobblestone floor of the outdoors patio where I practice in the morning has many circular motifs, I decided to practice what I had learnt on Saturday, as well as try out the three palm postures that I learnt, on Sunday morning and today (no bright bottlecap this time). Wow, the internal force from that exercise felt different! Practicing Horse Stance and Lohan Carrying Water usually led me to feel things such as solid, compact, or "armoured" for lack of a better term. The three palm postures felt more like there was a flowing river inside my body, yet I still felt rooted. I've felt the same from my Horse Stance and Lohan Carrying Water, but I feel the solidness far more often. It was an interesting contrast, at the very least!

Have a great week, everyone!
-Fred Chu

[Ish]

Thanks for the account, sounds like you've found a good master to train with. Congrats!

[yeniseri]

Hello everyone! Long time, no post.

My questions are: (a) Has anyone had experience with this school? and (b) Do they teach authentic martial arts and qigong?

I have heard (and sadly realized) that opportunities to learn authentic gongfu in person are extremely rare, and that Baguazhang is itself an extremely rare martial art outside of select locations. If this is authentic, I want don't want to let this chance pass me up.

I humbly ask the forum their educated and informed opinions so that I can make as informed decision as possible regarding the CTMAA.

Thank you very much for your time!

Interestingly, I have met with the instructor and he is a principled and upright individual therefore I would recommend him to anyone who is interested in learning his curriculum.
a. The school is terrific but the work is 'hard' i.e. hard training encompassing jibengong and shenfa, where most schools do not teach that. CTMAA is excellent in this regard. I have not had a teacher in many years so I decided to have a clear mind and see what this teacher had to offer and I was mildly surprised. He is superior in that regard!

Hope you had a good training session!

[Frederick_Chu]

Training journal? How about a monthly report instead?

Hello all, family members and welcome guests

I noticed on the Taijiquan and Shaolin Kung Fu forums that there were some family members who were posting training journals. While I've generally shied away from keeping a "training diary" or the like (I don't want to come to try and "expect" anything out of my training other than a general feeling of well-being in body and mind), I figured I could at least chat about how my monthly sessions are going with the CTMAA's Baguazhang classes.

I drove up last weekend for my second class which was pretty enlightening. While I was stretching a little before the class officially began, one of the other students spoke with Sifu (Lin) and they were discussing making a more in-depth applications video of Xing-yi. I know enough about Xing-yi to fill the back of a postage stamp, but I'm always a fan of kung fu knowledge being spread around.

We began with the usual flexibility exercises and then broke up to practice whatever exercises Sifu had us working on last time. Rather than working on linear walking, Sifu just had me work on circle walking with the first three palms I learnt last month. After making sure I hadn't deviated too badly in the past month, over the course of the next hour he showed me four new palm postures and their transitional steps (the steps made when changing the direction of the circle walk). Unfortunately we ran out of time before I could learn the transitional step for Point to Heaven Plunge to Earth.

I just had to laugh at how klutzy I was that night (and still am, with the new transitions); for the transitional step of "Lion Opens Mouth" (which involves a quick toe-in, toe-out, toe-in, and sweep of the arms), I nearly went tumbling when I tried walking through one of my own legs somehow.

I was shown a few applications and salient points of the four palm postures to understand why I was doing particular movements. The coiling of the arm after a thrusting palm during the transitional step of Yin-Yang Fish Palm, for example, showed coiling around someone's blocking arm and putting them into an arm-lock; the step of Lion Opens Mouth could be used to mirror the movements of someone attempting to apply a fell like Farmer Hoes Field in the Basic Shaolin Syllabus; and so on. Funnily enough, when Sifu was showing me the felling movement implied in Lion Opens Mouth, my body spontaneously "followed the momentum" which ended up with me standing next to him. We both laughed out loud at that; my Baguazhang brothers think I have "weird moves" now.

After the class, I was chatting with Sifu and he remarked on my stances, asking why I bothered with keeping my fist at my waist in Lohan Asks the Way and Second Brother Asks the Way. He said doing that made my responses too slow and that in his Baguazhang and Xing-yi, he just used a high Playing the Lute stance or even just stood up naturally. He said he could do this and still be rooted thanks to his Pre-Heaven Power training.

To demonstrate, we both assumed a poise in front of one another and he threw an incredible pressing attack of whipping arms and thrusting palms towards my face that left me completely bewildered and stumbling backwards. His "asking the way" movements were very forceful and knocked my arms aside quite effectively. I tried floating his incoming arms to perform White Horse Turns Head but just couldn't sneak into golden time to counterattack; he was just too quick for me. Now I know that I need to work on my footwork and timing skills for next time, heh.

So in summary, I've learnt the following from Sifu so far: various flexibility exercises (which I'm just referring to "Bagua Flexibility Art" for sake of reference), Linear Walking, Circle Walking, and the following Palm Postures: Black Bear From Cave, Great Bird Spreads Wings, Embrace the Moon*, Presenting a Peach*, Yin-Yang Fish, Lion Opens Mouth, and Point to Heaven Plunge to Earth*.

*For these Palms, Sifu didn't explicitly tell me their names; he just demonstrated the Palms and told me to practice them before going to teach other students. As the Bagua I'm learning right now is "Mostly Cheng and some Yin style" according to Sifu from last time, I named those palms (again for the sake of my own reference) according to the Cheng style book I have, Whirling Circles of Baguazhang by Masters Frank Allen and Tina Chunna Zhang.

See you next month!

[yeniseri]

Yizong pre heaven curriculum does contain elements of paquazhang and xingyi but the structural method is there for one to see a common thread in most neijiquan according to Zhang Zhufeng. Master Lin is very forthright and he will show you concepts and principles that most teachers only talk about.

Lou Dexiu also is from this same lineage, albeit from an earlier era but he is above reproach in sharing!

[Frederick_Chu]

Hello yet again!

Final exams are coming up next week, but since I may have to proctor an exam next Saturday, I showed up today for Baguazhang class. Rather than learning a lot of movements today, I actually spent a lot of time speaking with the Sifu about the nature of my training and the Baguazhang curriculum in CTMAA. After reviewing the previous seven palm postures and transitional steps, Sifu (Lin) showed me the last palm posture and step (the immediately recognizable posture, Green Dragon Stretches Claws), and I practiced that for a bit. He also showed me an application for each of the last two palms, but they were more for my awareness of their existence than for my practice; he said to focus on the stepping and postures, since the skills, conditioning, and flexibility derived from the "beginner's form" would be useful for my future development. I noticed that my poor finger flexibility was getting in my way, especially when doing the strike involved in the transitional step for Green Dragon Stretches Claws.

The curriculum at CTMAA for Baguazhang has the Cheng Ting-Hua system as well as the Yin Fu Lion and Phoenix animal systems. Sifu went on to explain that he personally believed that the Yin Fu system was easier to learn, so he showed me a straight-line exercise to practice one of the forms of jin used in Yin Fu. In his lineage, each of the Yin Fu animal forms has eight types of jin, and each type of jin has seven short sets/sequences to practice that representative jin. The first one was "Sweeping," which somewhat resembles Beauty Looks at Mirror or Immortal Waves Sleeves. He kept stressing relaxation as well as the following salient points: to drop the elbow, extend the scapulae, and wrap the hips (which results in a flattening of the lower back). According to him, creating the "proper structure" was key for being able to redirect force directed against him (for example, a push) as well as to give him solidity. He demonstrated that last point by simply stepping forward into a Four-Six stance as he extended his palm towards my forearm that thoroughly uprooted me. He also explained the basics of "squeezing the ground," though I didn't fully understand the movements; he said to work on that as he went to help some of the other students with applications.

He also explained how his experience of internal martial arts kept stressing "natural" movements. He declared that even people who do not know martial arts have certain instincts that will come to the fore if they ever get in a fight. He also said that with a laugh animals don't learn kung fu, but they can be very good at fighting. Once the training "takes," he said, martial arts students "replace" their instincts with better, more efficient instincts derived from their kung fu training. He then showed me some applications of redirecting force, of soft, hard, penetrating, and inch force that left me with no doubt as to his skill. Unfortunately, he mentioned that the major force training in his school (the Pre-Heaven Power method) isn't something that he can transmit in a day or a even a week, since his method of teaching it involves a lot of partner work. Perhaps this summer I'll be able to come up for that sort of training. Regardless, I'm quite happy with my stance and Two Finger Shooting Zen training =)

I noticed this time (this being my third monthly class) that I'm the youngest fellow there at 26. The other Baguazhang students are all at least forty years old, and all very friendly men easy with their smiles and chuckles. It seems that most of the children and younger folks are attracted to the Wudang and Taiji classes.

Ah well, I'm off to have dinner with my family, and after that, microbiology and biochemistry studying. Happy training, all!

[Anton S.]

Dear Frederick!

I am glad you went there and are having fun! Look forward to hear more from your training!

Kind regards,
Anton.