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**Luo Lang** · 28 June 2010, 08:42 PM

Dear DoubleA,
0any thanks for the posted links. I will have a look on it later on. Thanks again for your contribution.

Best regrads,
Roland

**Luo Lang** · 28 June 2010, 11:10 PM

Dear DoubleA,
I have had a short look at the provided videos. Some of the material seems to be interesting indeed, some doesn't. The three last videos show some intersting training methods.

Nevertheless it's not my job to give critics to other styles or other Master's performance.

I just would like to offer some of my ideas to think about it and to discuss in a friendly manner. That said different Masters teach differently. We highlight a different approach. And we are quite open to show that in public and share it.

What I have seen in some videos is that they highly exessively use external training methods. Basically nothing against external hardening. If you read my account on another thread then you will find out that I mentioned some curiosity about that. Again nothing wrong with this methods, but Wang Lang was small sized and compared to his classmates at the Northern Shaolin temple who were well known to be physically quite in an advantage, he had no match against them. So he would have to find a Way to defend himself. It's unlikely that he could develop a body to beat them up. The nature in this case will have it's limits. We may compare this with pro boxing. No matter how much a 66 kilogramm fighter would train, he would almost never get the physics to face a heavy weight opponent. No matter how much a Judo fighter would train with the weight of 66 kilogramms, he would most certainly not beat a heavyweight Judoca up. In both those cases the force, in this case the mechanic strengh would be superior than the techniques. Another comparison is the fight between a child of 12 whose form let's say in karate are perfectionated. Let's take a man with 100 kilogramms without any knowledge of karate. it's unlikely that the child would beat up the man.

How could Wang Lang get so powerful to beat up his classmates or at least defend himself?
So basically he first off travelled the country to collect the best Kung Fu features at time. Then he would create a Set and out of this he would have created combat sequences and tactics and strategies. But all this would only lead to success with the right amount of force. So how would a small sized person develop force. Wang Lang trained the 18 Lohanarts a set of internal exercises which enabled him to develop tremendous internal force, which compared to external strengh has no limit.

Does that mean that external training methods are not effective? Of course not! The fitness of the shown performers is very remarable. But it's kind of limited, especially in termes of health and vitality. The locked energy in the muscles and the locked energy in the externally hardened part of the body steal a lot of energy of interal organs and may create serious blockages which in turn may create serious deffects.

So now, was Wang Lang still powerful to take punches at the body or to have hard arms. Yes he was most probably very very powerful. But the power didn't come from conditioning but rather from his Internal force training. Then again was Wang Lang fast? Most probably he was very very fast. through his training he may developed the skill of mind leads energy energy leads movement.

You will have for sure much fun to watch the next coming uploads, where we go into the finer points of our training methods: the 18 features. The we will also upload the applications, most probably after the course. You will also have a taste of the 18 Lohanarts soon.

many thanks again for sharing those videos.

Best regards,

Roland

**DoubleA** · 29 June 2010, 01:24 AM

Thanks for checking the videos out.

I did briefly see them do the "three circle stance" and also something that resembled the "golden bridge" though. I really have no other information about their school other than what they put in the videos though. I'll def stay tuned for the further information that you all post.

Thanks again,
LAY

**steve** · 29 June 2010, 12:04 PM

Hi Roland,

We may compare this with pro boxing. No matter how much a 66 kilogramm fighter would train, he would almost never get the physics to face a heavy weight opponent. No matter how much a Judo fighter would train with the weight of 66 kilogramms, he would most certainly not beat a heavyweight Judoca up.

This has often been brought up in discussion and mostly true. A skilled light weight boxer is most likely to lose against a skilled heavy weight boxer. A skilled light weight and even aged boxer has often beaten less skilled heavy weights in training.

My question is, would a skilled light weight internal martial artist be equal to a skilled heavy weight internal martial artist? Other words, if you could take a master and clone a bigger version of him with all his skills, would the bigger version have the advantage?

**Ahmed S** · 29 June 2010, 01:18 PM

Dear DoubleA,

I would like to share some information of the steelwire mantis, however my comments are limited as I have not trained in steelwire mantis, I only have talked to the master who founded this system and trained for a bit in his Qigong.

From what I've been told steelwire mantis was taught some time ago by Shifu Tony Leung in the UK, steelwire mantis was Chow Gar SPM with the addition of Hung Kuen such as Ironwire training, so he named it steelwire mantis.

After being accepted as an indoor disicple of chen village and songshan shaolin temple, his training experience led him to believe that SPM as taught to him in hong kong was wrong, that the methods were too external and that Chow Gar SPM, is a truly internal system. His external training methods changed.

His old time students still carry on to teach his old system, he goes by the name ShiFu Shi DeLon now and does Shaolin Qigong, shaolin waiqi healing and Tai Chi Chuan.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...07842947302386#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...98114521948531

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...54257721&hl=en#

I've learnt his qigong for a short while but I prefer Shaolin Cosmos Qigong because in my opinion and experience I truly believe it is the best.

Kind Regards
Ahmed

**DoubleA** · 29 June 2010, 02:33 PM

Thank you for sharing Ahmed

**Shaolinfist** · 29 June 2010, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by steve View Post

My question is, would a skilled light weight internal martial artist be equal to a skilled heavy weight internal martial artist? Other words, if you could take a master and clone a bigger version of him with all his skills, would the bigger version have the advantage?

Hello Steve,
In answer to your question, I remember reading somewhere that large size is actually a disadvantage to internal martial artists! Their power does not come from the physical size, but the level of internal force that has been cultivated. This being so (and all things being equal) the larger opponent has more body mass to move and will therefore be slower than the smaller version of him!
Nice discussion by the way, I look forward to checking out the videos when I get home.

Regards,
Phil

**steve** · 30 June 2010, 08:49 AM

Hi Phil,

I gather from what you saying, in the world of internal MA the bigger person would have to be more skilled (have cultivated more internal force) than a smaller internal MA in order to have the advantage. So basically opposite to external MA.

I've read and heard that in the world of internal MA size, physical strength and external technique don't matter. The playing field is equal. But, from what I've seen, when a small and large person have the same tools and are equally skilled the smaller person has to work so much harder to equalize.

In non contact sparring often size doesn't seem to be a problem. The sparring appears to be balanced. But again I have to say, from what I've seen, when contact (to hurt) comes into play, the balance changes.

You can debate whether these internal MA were worth their salt. Perhaps they became external when put under pressure.

What I'm saying, is I hear it, but I haven't seen it in practice. Perhaps the real internal MA doesn't engage into full contact fights because it's so dangerous.

A bit off this threads topic.

**Luo Lang** · 30 June 2010, 09:48 AM

Hi Steve,
Interesting questions indeed.

My question is, would a skilled light weight internal martial artist be equal to a skilled heavy weight internal martial artist? Other words, if you could take a master and clone a bigger version of him with all his skills, would the bigger version have the advantage?

Not defenitively! In termes of force most probably yes. But in termes of speed most probably no. So it's a yes no, eventually answer. The force multiplies up to a clone would certainly be increased, because of the increased Jing. the ball of subatomic particles is more. But then because of the bigger size the movements get bigger as well, which could result into that the smaller sized with a shorter movement may be relatively faster.

But nevertheless, that's a play of words. If all things were equal. But as we know most of the time in life things are not equal.

**Shaolinfist** · 30 June 2010, 10:46 AM

Hi Steve,

From my experience and understanding with internal martial arts, full contact sparring would be very dangerous! If our brothers and sisters, uncles, aunties and Sifus were to engage in full contact sparring with eachother there would be a lot of very hurt people!
Even protective equiptment such as padded gloves and headguards would not do much to change this as internal force would be transmitted through these.
Interesting point about the increased mass increasing the Jing Siheng, still the speed would defeat the force in this situation dont you think?

Regards,
Phil

**steve** · 30 June 2010, 10:57 AM

But nevertheless, that's a play of words. If all things were equal. But as we know most of the time in life things are not equal.

Agreed.
For debate sake.
From what you're saying, the bigger person has more force, but is slower. Even so, the bigger person is able to strike by merely extending their reach. The smaller person who is faster, would have to use foot work in order to reach (uses up time). So both have advantages and disadvantages.

When it comes down to impact, it depends on how much force is generated when striking, and how much force can be absorbed or repelled when struck. Are large and small internal MA, equally skilled, equal at that point?

Another point, wouldn't it be that both the smaller and larger person should be able to move with equal speed if they are moving with chi flow? When you move with chi flow, your body moves effortlessly. If so, bad news for the little guy again.

**steve** · 30 June 2010, 11:09 AM

From my experience and understanding with internal martial arts, full contact sparring would be very dangerous! If our brothers and sisters, uncles, aunties and Sifus were to engage in full contact sparring with eachother there would be a lot of very hurt people!

I hear so, but never seen how dangerous it can be.

Interesting point about the increased mass increasing the Jing Siheng, still the speed would defeat the force in this situation dont you think?

Not necessarily. More force also includes more defensive force. Therefore able to take more punishment.

Smaller person gets in eg 3 quick strikes. Bigger person's golden bell handles it, strikes back in return. Smaller person may feel the extra force behind the strike?

**Shaolinfist** · 30 June 2010, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by steve View Post

I hear so, but never seen how dangerous it can be.

There are quite a few stories of students in our school receiving a seemingly gentle tap by accident in sparring and falling to the floor in agony. Only when their sifu transmited chi into them to clear the blockage, followed by some remidial chi kung have they recovered.

Originally posted by steve View Post

Not necessarily. More force also includes more defensive force. Therefore able to take more punishment.

Smaller person gets in eg 3 quick strikes. Bigger person's golden bell handles it, strikes back in return. Smaller person may feel the extra force behind the strike?

As this is a thoretical situation and my experience limited, it is difficult for me to really comment in much depth on the ability of the larger clone to withstand the blows of the smaller and vice versa. Roland made an interesting point that the larger person would have more jing because of his increased mass, but how much more defensive and offensive power this would give him I would not know.
The smaller person would definately have an advantage with speed over the larger opponent, as well as the larger opponent being a bigger target and therefore easier to hit, so I still stand with my opinion that the smaller person would win, although this is only an educated guess at best!

Phil

**steve** · 30 June 2010, 12:56 PM

Hi Phil,

At a kung fu course with Sifu Wong, Sifu was demonstrating doing precious duck, and he lightly touched a student in his dantien area. The student suddenly became pale and nauseas. Sifu made him do a lot of lifting the sky to clear the damage.

Would that happen if Sifu did the same to a clone of himself?

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