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Throat Strikes - How Deadly Are They?

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  • Throat Strikes - How Deadly Are They?

    Hi all,

    In my school when we train Baguazhang, throat strikes are implied a lot in the different forms we practice.

    In the 2 man sparring set, we often utilize a throat strike called 'Green Snake Spits Poison' (similar to 'White Snake Shoots Venom' found in Shaolin Wahnam Kung fu) to counter-attack a punch/kick.

    In our Baguazhang, this action is done in a Four-Six step before flowing into the next pattern. The strike can be done either with the palm facing up or the palm facing down.

    When this pattern is executed, it is quite powerful in terms of speed and force. Although I've never struck someone's throat (or eyes) with my fingertips before, I feel like I would break my fingers at the speed we execute this strike.

    In another thread, I posted a video about how to counter a bar fight scenario. The counter tactic used was a throat strike. Sifu Anthony rightfully stated that this use of lethal force that can land one in legal trouble/prison.

    With that being said, just how fragile is the human throat and trachea? Can a well executed single throat strike potentially kill somebody without internal force?

    Best regards,
    Stephen

  • #2
    Hi Stephen, why do you want to know? Are you worried about breaking your fingers if you were to be attacked in a street fight and wished to use the technique? Are you worried you will end up in prison? Are you worried you would kill someone if you applied the technique? Are you worried you will not be able to apply the technique? Is it none of these?

    There are many variables and no 'yes / no' answer.

    Variables include:
    1. The skill levels that the person delivering the strike has and / or utilizes
    2. The intent of the person delivering the strike
    3. The level of internal force that the person delivering the strike uses / has
    4. The level of physical / external force that the person delivering the strike uses
    5. The size /physical qualities of the hand delivering the strike
    6. The level of internal force that the person receiving the strike has or uses to defend the strike
    7. The size and physical qualities of the defender's neck
    8. The skills that the defender has / uses to defend
    9. The physical / external strength of the defender


    My opinion is that it is not the technique you should concern yourself with but the inherent level of skill that you have and are able to use in a real combat situation. You may be just as much at risk of hurting your hand using a Black Tiger strike to someone's stomach as you are a White Snake to the throat, if your skill level is not good and your opponent is a tough and seasoned fighter.

    I hope this is helpful as I'm not sure of the motivation for your question.

    Regards
    Rich
    ++ smile ++ from ++ the ++ heart ++
    Rich Denyer-Bewick
    ...
    you can connect with me on: Facebook (personal/social), Linkedin (professional) and Twitter (a bit of both!)

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    • #3
      Without internal force? I don't know. With internal force? When I'm in NYC, I can poke you in the throat and we can find out.

      But seriously, it hurts like hell even if I poke my throat gently. Not just the trachea -- anywhere. I'm confident that, if I Snake or Leopard someone in the throat, I'm going to get their attention. Will it kill them? I hope not. Will it stop them? I think so.
      Sifu Anthony Korahais
      www.FlowingZen.com
      (Click here to learn more about me.)

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      • #4
        During my gross anatomy class, we discussed (and played with actual specimen) the general throat area, and believe me, it is ridiculously easy to damage. A dedicated (or accidentally too powerful) poke with just an ordinary person's index or middle finger who hasn't trimmed their nails in a short while can go through the skin and penetrate the softer areas of the throat.

        Someone (I can't remember who) at the UK Sanda Tournament asked Sigung how we could strengthen our fingers, especially for the third Baguazhang combat sequence which includes several finger thrusts at around chest level. Sigung replied that Piercing Beans or (my preference) Stance Training would do the trick.

        The Shotokan Karate that I used to train as a child relied on extreme muscle tension to make the fingers rigid. Some of the Goju Karate folks around here thrust their fingers into buckets of sand to strengthen (deaden?) their fingers. Glad I never did that!

        Funnily enough, my aiki jujutsu sensei once mentioned that one of the "secrets" of the style is a particular way of trimming the nails to inflict more damage with finger pokes. We both shared a laugh at the mental image of some samurai clipping his nails with furrowed brow, eyes darting to the windows and doors of the room to make sure no one was stealing his "nail trimming art."
        I like making silly videos (including kung fu ones!) every so often on YouTube and taking pictures of weird things on Instagram.

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        • #5
          I've read various figures for what it takes to collapse the trachea.

          The usual figures are 33lbs-76lbs of pressure - so well within the range of what most untrained people are capable of. If you grip the trachea and squeeze from either side then even less force is required.

          That's why patterns like the Snake strike and the Tiger claw were invented! Thankfully we should probably never have to use them, or use them compassionately (i.e. gripping an arm rather than the throat) if at all in this day and age.

          Someone with a damaged or collapsed windpipe should not die if they receive prompt medical attention, but they are surely very dangerous techniques. That is why it is important to train with good intention, mental clarity and control, and why uncontrolled free sparring was often banned in traditional martial art schools.
          Sifu Andy Cusick

          Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
          Shaolin Qigong

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          "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
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          • #6
            Hi Rich,

            Are you worried about breaking your fingers if you were to be attacked in a street fight and wished to use the technique? Are you worried you will end up in prison? Are you worried you would kill someone if you applied the technique? Are you worried you will not be able to apply the technique? Is it none of these?
            I would say it's all the above. I have been trained in the "Green Snake Spits Poison" counterattack so many times that it has become second nature to me. So in the event that an aggressor attempts to strangle/choke/punch me, my spear hand would automatically come flying out to attack either his throat or his eyes without thinking.

            Unfortunately I have never struck cardboard boxes, wooden platforms or watermelon rinds with my fingers. I have never tested my internal force on objects/humans either (although in reality I think I have little internal force to begin with anyway).

            However, I simply feel that this technique can cause too much damage to the opponent (my fingers not withstanding).

            My opinion is that it is not the technique you should concern yourself with but the inherent level of skill that you have and are able to use in a real combat situation.
            I am not too concerned about the technique. I know I can execute at full speed and power since I have trained many many times.

            I hope this is helpful as I'm not sure of the motivation for your question.
            I brought this up for a simple discussion - I haven't seen this topic talked about before on this forum. I think it's something worthwhile to discuss considering this attack is found in many styles of Kung fu.

            Best regards,
            Stephen

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            • #7
              Hi Sifu Anthony,

              With internal force? When I'm in NYC, I can poke you in the throat and we can find out.
              LOL I rather that not happen.

              But seriously, it hurts like hell even if I poke my throat gently. Not just the trachea -- anywhere. I'm confident that, if I Snake or Leopard someone in the throat, I'm going to get their attention. Will it kill them? I hope not. Will it stop them? I think so.
              Agreed. Since I needed to feel for myself, I had my senior kung fu brother gently strike my throat earlier this morning before Bagua practice and it is rather extremely unpleasant.

              As a result, I can easily agree with the posts made by Sifu Andy and Fred:

              The usual figures are 33lbs-76lbs of pressure - so well within the range of what most untrained people are capable of.
              During my gross anatomy class, we discussed (and played with actual specimen) the general throat area, and believe me, it is ridiculously easy to damage. A dedicated (or accidentally too powerful) poke with just an ordinary person's index or middle finger who hasn't trimmed their nails in a short while can go through the skin and penetrate the softer areas of the throat.
              Thanks for the insights all!

              Best regards,
              Stephen

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              • #8
                It's kinda scary to think that a throat strike is our second shaolinquan combat sequence. I'd rather close my fist in a real fight and make it a high punch to the nose or something.
                Shaolin Wahnam USA

                "Every morning you are born again. What you do today is the most important thing".

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                • #9
                  Yes, a leopard fist to the bridge of the nose is a modification that is less dangerous if you are in a scuffle.

                  Snake strikes are for a life/death situations.
                  Sifu Andy Cusick

                  Shaolin Wahnam Thailand
                  Shaolin Qigong

                  sigpic

                  Connect:
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                  "a trained mind brings health and happiness"
                  - ancient wisdom

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                  • #10
                    It wont be a problem to kill someone by striking his throat. One will not be dead instandly but might be unable to breath and die after a few minutes.

                    I can ony recommed not to use a technique like this unless your life or the life on a loved one really depends on it.

                    If someone attacks you with a knife and there is no escape- If it is fight or die. That is the right point to use a strike like this.
                    Benedikt Vennen
                    Shaolin Wahnam Germany

                    ______________________

                    May I be firm and resolute. may I be kind, compassionate, and friendly. May I be humble, calm, quiet, unruffled and serene. May I serve to be perfect. May I be perfect to serve.

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                    • #11
                      Hello brothers!



                      Originally posted by namaste View Post
                      1. The skill levels that the person delivering the strike has and / or utilizes
                      2. The intent of the person delivering the strike
                      3. The level of internal force that the person delivering the strike uses / has
                      4. The level of physical / external force that the person delivering the strike uses
                      5. The size /physical qualities of the hand delivering the strike
                      6. The level of internal force that the person receiving the strike has or uses to defend the strike
                      7. The size and physical qualities of the defender's neck
                      8. The skills that the defender has / uses to defend
                      9. The physical / external strength of the defender

                      i completly agree with all the variables mentioned, BUT if the question is about damage or no damage their is one variable not included that seems to be the most important for my opinion:
                      !! the depth of the strike !! -meaning after touching the skin, how deep do you penetrate into your oponent.

                      I have to say that i have used throat-strikes. My own experinece in practising as well as in real self-defence-situation is as following:
                      if you hit the throat of a similar sized person at it´s lowest point (where it comes out of the torso), you can penetrate into the throat as deep as the "first joint of your middle finger is long" !
                      Even with speed their is no damage at all. but still it is very effective because the hitten person is for sure stopped , unable to breath and pushed backwards about 15 to 40 cm (with a little delay).
                      All this effects vanish completly after 4 to 10 seconds.

                      It is even more save if you are able to first TOUCH the lowest point of the throat and THEN advance for "one joint more".

                      To create a killing effect you pierce THROUGH the throat.


                      all the best
                      Shaolin salute
                      O\
                      Andreas from Austria
                      Love & Compassion Peace & Happiness Fullfillment & Enlightenment

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
                        Funnily enough, my aiki jujutsu sensei once mentioned that one of the "secrets" of the style is a particular way of trimming the nails to inflict more damage with finger pokes. We both shared a laugh at the mental image of some samurai clipping his nails with furrowed brow, eyes darting to the windows and doors of the room to make sure no one was stealing his "nail trimming art."
                        LOL

                        Staff? Check
                        Sword? Check
                        Trident? Check
                        Nail clippers and file? Check

                        Interesting thread and thanks Stephen for starting it.

                        I think sometimes even the threat of a snake strike if it has overcome someone's defences, can be enough to stop someone's attack - a little bit of pressure (enough to indicate that further pressure could be very painful) is often all it takes, if it can be controlled. And if you have good skill, if someone doesn't get the 'message' that the snake strike is a millisecond away from delivering something very destructive, and they continue to resist, the snake can be turned into a tiger claw and the throat compassionately gripped / controlled and a felling technique executed. Spacing, timing and skill level permitting of course!

                        ++ smile ++ from ++ the ++ heart ++
                        Rich Denyer-Bewick
                        ...
                        you can connect with me on: Facebook (personal/social), Linkedin (professional) and Twitter (a bit of both!)

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                        • #13
                          I remember hearing on some martial arts documentary that the strength of a human throat is comparable to an empty beer/soda can. So yes, it's a very weak point.

                          I bet an eye is about as resistant to poking as a grape, so this would be an extremely weak point. Although I have poked someone in the eye before and it seems to "squish" itself out of the way. And I felt my middle finger go in to at least over my fingernail. (Lifting the sky cleared that up)

                          I agree with Benedict. It's justified in only extreme situations.
                          Last edited by Jimbeaux; 9 October 2012, 05:50 AM.
                          Sigung: This is a great exercise for women, because it makes them beautiful and radiant.
                          Student: And what does it do for men?
                          Sigung: It makes women beautiful!
                          Smile from the heart!

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                          • #14
                            And for some throat striking action from "Taken:"

                            When his daughter gets kidnapped, Liam Neeson retaliates by hitting a lot of dudes in the throat. And who can blame him? Throat chops are quick and effective...


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Frederick_Chu View Post
                              We both shared a laugh at the mental image of some samurai clipping his nails with furrowed brow, eyes darting to the windows and doors of the room to make sure no one was stealing his "nail trimming art."
                              Thank you for this wonderful mental image. It sounds like something straight out of a tongue in cheek Tarantino movie
                              When one door closes, another one opens.

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