Undermining confidence in Shaolin Wahnam

[Marcus]

Hello everyone,

I've been putting this post off for a while, but a PM a few days ago made me realise that this is an issue that needs dealing with. It seems that some members of the forum are recieving unwanted PM's from people seeking to undermine their confidence in Shaolin Wahnam. Myself and the other Admin/moderators on this forum have no issue with people having different opinions to ours. But when they start trying to "poison" others in private this is not acceptable.

So I have three objectives in making this post.

1) I want everyone to know that they can and should contact moderators and administrators if they recieve messages from people they consider unethical, disturbing or otherwise out of order, from other forum members

2) This is a thread where people who have been affected by such an event to post about what they recieved from whom and how they handled it.

3) This thread is also a place where people who are affected can post about what they have recieved and ask for advice on how to handle it.

Let me re-iterate. We of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute have no difficulties with people holding views different to our own. In fact one of the aims of this forum is for the airing of different views and we have many interesting threads as a result. But what will not be tolerated is members targeting other members to air their views. Some of our members are young and others may be vulnerable. I'm sure all of us wish to ensure that this forum is a safe place for everyone to visit and to benefit from. It's time this matter was brought into the open.

Thank you for your help in this matter.

Kind regards
Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Claire]

Thank you for opening this up Sifu, it's very much appreciated.

I was contacted via PM back in early August by Yeniseri. At first he'd emailed me in response to a couple of the (many ) posts I'd made on the forum.

In both cases, I’d found the nature of his PMs rather inappropriate.

1. he didn’t say hello, or introduce himself which I found discourteous, instead he just dived straight into.:
2. telling me what was happening to me and giving me direction (not offering advice) as to what I should do about it.

For one, I considered this rudely presumptuous towards myself, as well as my student/Wahnam relationship, but I let it slide in the hope that his approach would calm with time.

I didn't reply to his first PM, if I'm honest I was hoping he'd take the hint and either calm said tone or just leave me alone.

The second, similar, PM I responded to with a polite but brief 1 line thank you, not wishing to seem rude but, again, hoping he would get the hint.


Sadly he did not, and his third PM was rather different - it was out of the blue and he'd ramped up his approach.

As usual he dived straight in and said 'do this'... in this case it was telling me to look at a site from another practice. He also ‘told’ me to read around as there were 'other views out there.'


The posts of mine I am referring to were ones asking for thoughts and opinions in relation to my experiences. Rather than offering his views on the forum for all to see, the 'this is fact and this what you should do' manner of his direct contact via PM seemed, in my opinion, a rather insidious attempt to undermine WahNam’s standing with me at a point when he might think I was vulnerable. Stating he was a teacher and the manner in which he was telling me to look at and do this and that etc, I also felt he was trying to 'recruit' me in the process. Personally I also found his tone very patronising towards both myself and WahNam.

So I decided it was time to be direct in return and I responded politely but firmly explaining who I was, why I had come to WahNam, and pointed out:

"I am aware that there are many other systems out there, some of which I have studied and experienced, however, I have chosen WahNam and feel incredibly priveledged that it has accepted me."

I also decided to report his conduct to the moderators.

Personally I will always give people the benefit of the doubt in terms of their conduct, as I hope people would with me, but there is a limit past which I have to say something. In this case I’m very glad I did.

[Antonius]

Thank you, Claire, for sharing that. I hope that others will follow your lead. Also, I'd like to remind people that if they prefer being discreet, they should feel free to PM me, Andrew, Marcus, or any of the instructors. We understand that some situations are best kept private. However, I'm sure all of you can appreciate the importance of us knowing what is going on behind the scenes.

[8nsteen8]

I recieved a PM some days ago that i have decided to show in public. I will call him John and for your information he has over 170 posts in this forum.

The intention was to get me to doubt Sifu and Shaolin Wahnam and my practise in Shaolin Cosmos Chikung.

I feel John targeted me because of my openess in this forum. And he tried to use that against me.

Luckily have i gone so far in my Chi Kung training that my mind is clear enough to see through an attempt like this. I know though that just some months ago i might have answered him and looked into the Teacher he suggested, without understanding his real motives about contacting me.

about worry and about Shaolin Wahnam

Hi,

I once was a student of Sifu Wong. I experienced some negative effects of the practice, even though I tried to do it well, and follow the instructions. I kept with it, thinking it would pass. Actually my situation became worse. After some months of such practice, I had an emotional breakdown. I realized that the practice is not really designed to improve one's health. Even though it is heavily marketed as such, I don't think people really experience significant health benefits. Has Sifu Wong ever demonstrated anything to you or his students?
I have found a teacher where I live who has trained under master XXXXX in China. He is world recognized as being one of the top 5 internal martial artists. My teacher has seen what he can do, and he is quite powerful. I would recommending checking into this. If you can't find it, I would recommend finding an acupuncturist.

John

Just some lines into his message John reveals himself when he says:

"I experienced some negative effects of the practice, even though I tried to do it well, and follow the instructions. I kept with it, thinking it would pass"

He dont mention what he mean with negative effects. I have had many things happening with me due to my practise that if you look at it from the outside would be considered very negative but was happening because of correct practise.

And by thinking of effects as something negative it will definately hinder your practise and make you frustrated and eventually have you stop practising. And it could even cause new blockages.

Then he says:

"Actually my situation became worse. After some months of such practice, I had an emotional breakdown"

I also had after around 2 months what someone from the outside would call an emotional breakdown. I got memories from the past that i had supressed and i started to talk about them with my family and i started to shake, scream, cry...thing after thing just came out of me...i was sitting with my family like this for two hours and was letting go of so much emotions. My family was shocked but i ensured them that it was all good. After 2 hours of this i started to feel fantastic and i started to laugh and laugh and laugh and i felt so free.

So yes from the outside it was an emotional breakdown but from my perspective it was one of the most fantastic moments in my life.

So i feel that John might have practised well all the time but for some reason was he doubting what was was happening with him. Maybe he had someone stiring doubt within his practise, or he didnt have anyone to talk to about his effects of practise. So when he got bigger and bigger effects he got more and more negative.

Its also very revealing when he asks if i have ever seen Sifu demonstrating anything. And then he says further down when he talks about the Master of his system:

"My teacher has seen what he can do, and he is quite powerful"

Its very obvious that his post is just a mirror of his own doubts and worrys.

I feel sorry for him and the situation he is in. I hope he will be able to get out of it soon. But with that state of mind he is in at the moment he can cause alot of harm here. And i trust the Administrators to take the right actions.

Keep posting here and keep practising and trust your own discernment. Dont let anyone else decide for you. And if you feel unpleasant about something dont hesitate to get in contact with someone you trust.

Sincerely,
Niklas

[Hubert]

Its very obvious that his post is just a mirror of his own doubts and worrys.

That is a great insight, Niklas. Congratulations on your good practice and progress.

I find it actually quite funny that someone would challenge the fact that Sifu is demonstrating good health and vitality... Surely there would be better choices of arguments

[Andrew]

Thanks for those posts Niklas and Claire. I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg, so let's all help it melt.

Andrew

[P. McSweeney]

I haven't received any PM's but I have previous experience of someone trying to undermine my confidence in Sifu (Wong). Depending on how good they are at it and your own state of mind it is possible to fall into their trap. However whenever I began doubting Qigong and Sifu I only had to think of Sifu Joan and her amazing recovery. Even today I heard first hand from someone who started Joan’s classes how wonderful an experience it was.

It’s unfortunate that people are more interested in slandering Sifu than finding their own path. Don’t let it cloud your judgement. Look around you at all the intelligent and able people who are in Shaolin Wahnam. Look at all the people who have benefitted from Sifu’s teachings. Look at Sifus Kai, Anthony, Emiko and more. Look at yourself and how you’ve advanced.

There was one particular ‘funny’ incident I remember. This person who shall remain nameless said to me “You know I don’t think Sifu can really fight, I mean look at all those stupid names he gives the patterns. Now I think XXXX (a student of Sifu’s who I don’t want to name) can fight, yes he has fought in real tournaments etc etc.” And I turned around and said “so why did XXXX become a student of Sifu’s?” I mean this person was so clouded in his judgement of Sifu that he couldn’t even see he was contradicting himself. For whatever reason his mind had become poisonous.

So don’t allow yourself to be fooled! Smile from your heart and the truth will reveal itself!

P

[Antonius]

Thanks for sharing, Niklas.

The sad irony of "John's" case is that he himself is a victim. "John's" friend, who is now his teacher, undermined his confidence from the very beginning. And now, "John" is passing on the bad habit of undermining confidence by targeting our students. It's almost as if he doesn't want people to benefit from Shaolin Cosmos Qigong so that he can explain his own failure.

It is baffling that someone could suggest that people don't experience health benefits from practicing Shaolin Cosmos Qigong. Thousands upon thousands of people are getting not just minor benefits, but amazing benefits. Often, the benefits fall into the category of "miraculous". Sifu Wong has more miraculous cures under his belt than any healer I know, including world-class acupuncturists. Even my own students are getting amazing results, like overcoming chronic migraines, releiving chronic menstural cramps, and releasing depression.

It's amusing that "John" asks if Niklas has seen Sifu demonstrate anything! (Sifu is the healthiest, most energetic person I know and is a walking demonstration of the benefits of my art.) "John" then talks about what his teacher's teacher can do despite having never seen it. My students don't have to rely on what I've seen Sifu do. Aside from the benefits that they receive, they get demonstrations directly from me. For example, several of my students have felt me transmit qi, while others have knocked arms with me and felt my power. They also see that I am healthy and full of energy, which is a remarkable change from how I was before practicing Shaolin Cosmos Qigong.

The reason "John" didn't benefit from Shaolin Cosmos Qigong is simple: he didn't follow instructions. One reason he didn't follow instructions is because he had his confidence undermined by a close "friend", who is also a qigong teacher. Having confidence in your art is of the utmost importance, and all competent qigong instructors know this. I would never undermine the confidence of a student learning form another instructor. It is totally irresponsible, and the results can be disasterous, as they were with "John".

[Simon]

I would like to thank Sifu Marcus for starting this thread and also thank those who have shared their PM experiences with us.

It is very useful to get such a 'behind the scene' look at what takes place in the forum. I only hope that it once again shows what the administrators have to deal with, and what a great job they do.

As mentioned in the previous posts, when practising Chi Kung , a negative view of the exercise can be the cause of failure. Does this mean that we must be 100% confident and believe fully in everything involved? No. We just have to relax, smile from the heart and follow the instructions given. Our own experiences will form the basis of our confidence, not a second hand story of someone who was once meant to have done this or that.

Because our beliefs are based on our own personal experience they are held much more strongly than any ideas based on intellectual study. Maybe this is why many in Wahnam are considered to be set in their ways.

Thanks again,

Simon

[Antonius]

Hi Pascal. I didn't see your post before I made mine. It's funny. I had almost the exact same experience with someone. He said he wasn't sure if Sifu could fight, but he was sure Kai could fight. It was so illogical to me. Kai travelled all through Asia looking for and challenging masters. Why would Kai finally choose to become a student under someone who couldn't fight? Plus, after you spar with Sifu, there will be no doubt in your mind.

It's a good point, Simon. It's true that many of us seem set in our ways. In reality, it's just a firm stance based on direct personal experience. I've watched my sijie Jean deal with people who argue about the effectiveness of Qigong on things like endometriosis. Jean simply wouldn't budge in her conviction. After all, she cured herself of endometriosis using qigong.

[Antonius]

Shaolin Cosmos Qigong Works

I hate to let the cat out of the bag, but I decided that it's important in this situation. Niklas was trying to protect Tom's identity, which is nice of him. Nevertheless, I am trying to protect Shaolin Wahnam students. In this situation, I feel that the students are more important than Tom's identity. Those who have been on this forum for a while knew exactly who Niklas was talking about, but newer members probably didn't. Therefore, I have decided to link to an old thread for the benefit of new members.

This post here shows how Tom's friend undermined his confidence. You can see plenty of evidence in Tom's own words in that post, as well as his words in that thread in general. It is sad that, a year later, Tom is still blind to what went wrong with him. It's even sadder that he is trying to subversively undermine the confidence of other students.

In that thread, Tom asks of Andrew:

How many people have you personally help cure (and let's say for the sake of arguement that a medical doctor would be surprised too)?

I'd like to offer my answer after roughly 11 months of teaching Shaolin Cosmos Qigong publicly: I have personally helped 9 people to get results that doctors later reported to be surprising. I keep a detailed database of my students and their progress, so I'm not just speaking off the top of my head. Actually, the number is closer to 15 where doctors would be surprised (as Tom phrased it), but I chose to only count cases where I specifically heard directly or indirectly from doctors.

Anyway, I think that 9 cases of external confirmation by doctors is still pretty good for 11 months of teaching.