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What a nice surprise to hear from you. Talk about unexpected lessons. I am still indebted to you for your kindness. Send my regards to everyone in your lovely family.
"Then how could chi kung overcome diseases where the cause is unknown or when there is no cure? The question is actually incorrect. The expressions "the cause is unknown" and "there is no cure" are applicable only in the Western medical paradigm. The expressions no longer hold true in the chi kung paradigm. In the chi kung paradigm the cause is known, and there is a cure."
Hey Folks,
First of all, I would like to thank everyone for their words and opinions here. It is nice to contribute to this thread.
I would also like to remind people about the title of the thread.
Unexpected Lesson.
This does not mean that they are going to be pleasant lessons, just unexpected.
Ok this is also a Wahnam Institute forum, and first and foremost it is more for students of Wahnam and instructors, so they can communicate and answer questions and queries for people.
We allow discussion because we are genuinely open to learning and we value everyone answers and opinions, even when we disagree.
Ok in our responses to people, have we ever responded with deragatory comments, foul language etc. Have we ever been belligerient in our thread content. I acknowledge that we have been firm, very firm in our responses.
Luckily other instructors are far more tolerant than me, If people had behaved poorly/badly, or been downright rude and nasty. I would have dumped them a long time ago. This is something that I will not tolerate in my students or myself, or in my school So why here?
But we all learn something from this. If you think we are being to mean, then I would ask you to think why and look a bit deeper or clearer!!.
Sifu and Instructors have been more then fair to Sifu Stier or your goodself .
Wisning you success and best wishes in Your vocation ,
Damian Kissey .
Dear Damian Kissey,
Thank you for your kind words and for replying specifically and clearly in your post. I gladly acknowledge that I have been treated fairly on this forum.
Please calle me "Michael" or "Michael Udel" as I am not a Sifu. In Pan Gu Shengong we do not have such titles, and in the Tai-Chi Chuan that I practice, I am about 30 years of daily practice away from being addressed as Sifu. I appreciate your addressing me with respect and it is my intention to do the same for you.
Best wishes,
Michael
Take kindness and benevolence as basis.
Take frankness and friendliness to heart.
When Sifu Stier criticizes someone he does it immediately, by himself, and usually in a context relevant to the current post and situation. He does not hold grudges, conceal his true opinions at a certain time only to let them multiply and become large enough to hit someone over the head with them at a later date, or instigate others to jump onto his bandwagon and join his criticism so as to gang upon an individual.
Michael,
From this post I assume you are accusing Shaolin Wahnam instructors of this. I would personally disagree with most of what you have written above. But that is me and my opinion. Each of us must form their own.
I would just like to thank you, and your family for the hospitality shown to me on that intensive Chi Kung course. Your family, and their smiles were beautiful, thanks for making it a special time for me.
Knowing me, knowing you, Aahhhh, There is nothing we can do... ABBA
This is in response to the post #95 of the thread "strategies and tactics" that Sifu Korahais closed while I was in the middle of making a post. Then he added the following line, saying it was only temporarily closed:
"This thread will be temporarily closed until the moderators have a chance to clean things up and split the posts into more appropriately named topics."
Dear Sifu Anthony,
Originally posted by Antonius
If you were not aware that you sounded extremely emotional, then I think you might want to reread your posts.
I think you misunderstood the purpose of my message. I was replying to Sifu Jeffrey in the spirit of his words to me. "I was unaware" that he interpreted my statements as "emotional", which is a polite, non-argumentative response to his message to me. I do not wish to draw anyone else into this argument other than the principals: Sifus Korahais, Barnett, Santer, Stier, and myself, because doing so will cause more damage to the forum than has already been done. As I have stated, I wish to advocate the continued excellence and harmonious operation of this forum, and I believe that you and Sifus Barnett and Santer are damaging this forum by your repeated, multiple, and flagrant personal attacks against Sifu Stier, all in direct violation of its rules. I am willing to be as diplomatic and polite as necessary, and eat a little crow or take a little guff from other forum members who are not engaged in the coordinated attack against Sifu Stier in order to minimize the overall damage to this forum.
It seems you have mistaken my kindness for weakness, as have a few others recently. I would like to demonstrate that I am reasonable and fair-minded in this situation, which has been completely lost on Sifu Barnett, and at least partially lost on you.
Although you had a few good points in there, most people will never read them because they are buried in a whirlwind of words, many of which are, quite frankly, completely unreasonable.
I appreciate your sense of fair play by acknowledging my good points, albeit nonspecifically. When you have made me aware of your good points, I have specifically addressed them and conceded your correctness, while you have repeatedly failed to address some of my most significant statements.
Also, I do appreciate the fact that you are usually speaking to me directly, and not simply grandstanding for the crowd as Sifu Barnett is doing, while he simultaneously speaks to me in a completely patronizing manner, which has dictated the tone of my responses to him.
I still believe you are not confident in your abilities because you require so much external validation. Sifu Stier is the one whose reputation is more at risk, and he does not require any conditions whatsoever. If you and Sifu Stier meet, the two of you would know what happened. If you were more confident in your abilities and less interested in attacking Sifu Stier, and instead were actually following a respectable motive of simply knowing for yourself what his abilities, knowledge, experience, credentials (are there any words I am leaving out that you will later claim was your true meaning in order to evade my questions?) really are, you wouldn't need any stipulations and conditions, much less witnesses and videos, any more than he does. He is confident, you are not. I suggest that Sifu Stier would be glad to give a demonstration to you on a Friday, that you could witness from a respectable distance, and then push hands with you on Saturday or Sunday. I can not speak for Sifu Stier, but I think he'd agree.
But the fighter is still there, itching to get loose.
I don't know you? I can recognize someone who feels the need to prove himself by fighting and by appealing to a crowd. Truly confident people are not itching for a fight. They may be ready for one, but they are not anxious for one, as you obviously are.
In this regard, I think you may have stepped a bit out of your realm of experience. Please correct me if I am wrong.
In reply to your fair warning above, thanks, but not interested. At the current time, all I want from you is to discontinue the prolonged, multiple, and coordinated personal attacks against Sifu Stier in direct violation of the rules of this forum. All I am willing to prove to you is that I am able to stand here with the moral courage necessary to step in when I see a wrong being done.
Your (Korahais and Barnett) basis for requiring validation of knowledge and experience from Sifu Stier is completely baseless. Sifu Wong and the Shaolin Wahnman Institute have a longstanding policy, published in print and online, and spoken publicly, that a Master does not have to prove anything to anyone except his worthy students. Based on this policy, you can not require Sifu Stier to provide you with any proofs whatsoever, unless you become his student.
Sifu Anthony, I am eagerly awaiting your response to the previous paragraph in order that I may see how uncleverly you will attempt to change the rules, or fabricate completely new ones, in order to evade and dismiss what I have stated.
While I was writing this post, you added another one, #112:
The suggestion that we are breaking our own rules is both untrue and inappropriate...Let me remind everyone that you are guests here
Why inappropriate? Are you above the law? You have now threatened to take your football home with you since people aren't letting you have your way. For the sake of variety, please use a new tactic to evade the important point I made above.
And now you close the thread before I could submit my post. You have actually taken the football home to sit alone. The Expected Lesson being that you acknowledge you were not righteous in your attacks against Sifu Stier.
As for breaking our own rules, I have this to say: This is not a democracy.
Then why have rules at all, if you can change them at your whim and open and close threads to your own advantage? There are currently four threads (including the closed one) being used by Shaolin Wahnam Instructors to attack Sifu Stier. To add more confusion, will you actually create more threads for your coordinated personal attacks against Sifu Stier?
Best wishes,
Michael
Last edited by Michael Udel; 25 March 2006, 04:24 AM.
Take kindness and benevolence as basis.
Take frankness and friendliness to heart.
I am sorry that the thread was closed while you were posting. I checked the active users list, and no one was posting when I looked. Also, it is now past midnight here in Florida, which is usually a good time to moderate the forum. I have an appointment early tomorrow morning. Nevertheless, I shall endeavor to address your points.
As I have stated, I wish to advocate the continued excellence and harmonious operation of this forum, and I believe that you and Sifus Barnett and Santer are damaging this forum by your repeated, multiple, and flagrant personal attacks against Sifu Stier, all in direct violation of its rules.
We understand your opinions. You have said it again and again. You think that we are breaking our own rules. But we disagree. And here is where I will not argue with you, Michael. Because that argument goes in circles. You can continue to say that calling Sifu Stier's technique "low level" is a personal attack, but we disagree. That is not a personal attack. It addresses his technique, not his character.
This is a personal attack: Danny is a rotten, egotistical jerk.
I have specifically addressed them and conceded your correctness, while you have repeatedly failed to address some of my most significant statements.
Which statements were those? You must admit, there was a lot to read through. If I failed to address some of them in a 24-hour period while simultaneously handling the rest of the forum, attending school, working, and practicing -- please forgive me. Or call me evasive. Whichever you prefer.
I still believe you are not confident in your abilities because you require so much external validation.
Okay.
. Sifu Stier is the one whose reputation is more at risk, and he does not require any conditions whatsoever.
This is unreasonable. It is precisely because Sifu Stier's reputation is at risk that he requires no conditions. If he were truly confident in his ability to beat me (and beat me convincingly), wouldn't you expect him to agree to any stipulations, including a public video?
Based on this policy, you can not require Sifu Stier to provide you with any proofs whatsoever, unless you become his student.
No, we cannot require it of him, although we do require validation of basic credentials before offering someone the title of "Grandmaster" on our own forum. We obviously do not require anything of Sifu Stier. He remains a guest on our forum.
Nevertheless, it is our prerogative to ask (repeatedly, even) for some substantiation of his experience. To be clear, I am not implying that he is not Dr. Gary Stier. I think we all believe that he is who he says he is, and that he has 30+ years of experience, etc. What I question is whether or not he has direct experience of some of the things that he speaks of in his posts. Mental and emotional calmness, for example.
Sifu Anthony, I am eagerly awaiting your response to the previous paragraph in order that I may see how uncleverly you will attempt to change the rules, or fabricate completely new ones, in order to evade and dismiss what I have stated.
I see. Michael, I don't know what to say to this other than...okay.
Why inappropriate? Are you above the law? You have now threatened to take your football home with you since people aren't letting you have your way. For the sake of variety, please use a new tactic to evade the important point I made above.
Who decides if someone is breaking the law here? You? Sifu Stier? Michael, you have concluded that we broke the law. That is your opinion, not fact. We disagree with your conclusion while simultaneously allowing you to voice it.
As I said, this is not a democracy. This forum is run first and foremost by Sifu Wong, and secondly by his 30+ instructors. We believe that we are fair and reasonable, although we openly listen to criticism. Nevertheless, until Sifu Wong calls me and tells me that we are breaking the law, we will continue to operate as we see fit, not as you see fit.
Well, that was certainly not a surprise! No unexpected lessons here. Only another dose of self-righteous justification for mean spirited agenda priorities transparently hidden in plain view behind another carefully orchestrated diversionary smokescreen.
It just keeps getting better and better...or worse and worse depending upon one's point of view...as time goes by. Spiralling ever downward to the inevitable crash and burn. Ah, but so what, right?
What the heck...just keep digging, brother. Your huge hole should hit bedrock sometime soon, preventing you from going any lower, and you'll then have no choice but to elevate your efforts upward again from that low level. Good luck!
I see that you are having much fun on the forum (for those who are worried about the "attacks" against you, they shouldn't be, really ) . I must say I am quite entertained myself, although for different reasons.
May I ask however why you are so keen to witness the "inevitable crash and burn" that you are predicting? Surely if things where that bad you would have left already and not kept on writing so many posts?
(don't misunderstand me, I am glad you are still on the forum. I learnt a lot from the recent exchanges - more so than you think!)
Only another dose of self-righteous justification for mean spirited agenda priorities transparently hidden in plain view behind another carefully orchestrated diversionary smokescreen.
That was an interestingly orchestrated sentence wasn't it (i'm not mocking, it was interesting)
Originally posted by Sifu Stier
It just keeps getting better and better...or worse and worse depending upon one's point of view...as time goes by. Spiralling ever downward to the inevitable crash and burn. Ah, but so what, right?
What the heck...just keep digging, brother. Your huge hole should hit bedrock sometime soon, preventing you from going any lower, and you'll then have no choice but to elevate your efforts upward again from that low level. Good luck!
Yeah, who cares if someone is falling . If someone was crashing and burning, at the moment your words seem to be mocking them. Compassion anyone?
"Mental and emotional calmness, for example." inquires Sifu Korahais. Several times you have displayed to everyone the lack there of in your posts with some of your immature outbursts. Are you worried about trying to prove something? If not, why the knee-jerk emotional outbursts and mocking words you use?
But despite your behaviour, in the past Shaolin Wahnam has compassionately given way.
Who's really digging themselves deeper. Its already been proven.
But of course, my post is just another attack on Sifu Stier right, with flagrant abuse of the forum rules
Because words can never say exactly what the speaker wants to say, they are constantly being mis-interpreted. In most cases the mis-interpretation is negligible. For example, when you tell your friend you want to go out for dinner, the image he has in his mind, derived from your words, may not be exactly the same as the image from which your own words issued. But although you might be thinking of a hamburger for dinner while he might be thinking of grilled lobsters, he would know that you wanted to go out for dinner, and not for dancing or playing football.
Now with those words fresh in your mind let's have a short summary of what has gone on in this forum. There was a conflict between Sifu Stier and some Shaolin Wahnam instructors. This conflict happened using words which as Sifu says are constantly mis-intepreted. Thanks to this fact and to the fact that we are all mere human being and not enlightened sages we have gotten more and more tangled in this situation, at some points even offended. We also keep going round and round in discussion.It was not all bad (see thread: Unexpected Lessons) but I think we're getting a bit tired of this whole thing so..
Let's try go beyond words for the solution.
Sifu Stier: on some other thread that I don't have time to find you mentioned you have some tapes of you that you give to your students. This gets rid of all the hassle needed to make a new tape. Could you send this tape to Anthony so he will have some idea of your skill level and also to be sure of who you are so he knows who he will be meeting.
Anthony: If Sifu Stier sends you such a tape will you be willing to take him up on his invitation to meet (Regardless if you spar, chat, drink tea, beer, vodka shooters or any other beverage) and see for yourself what you think of the man?
To everyone : can we stop attacking each other for a while even if you think it is a good way of testing your kungfu. Maybe you can test your spiritual growth instead? Looking at all the threads we seem to be stuck saying the same things over. Just my opinion. I had more to say but I forget the rest and I have to run to attend a yoga seminar.
No, we cannot require it of him…
…we do require validation
We obviously do not require anything of Sifu Stier.
Nevertheless, it is our prerogative to ask (repeatedly, even) for some substantiation of his experience.
Your explanation makes no sense. You repeatedly contradict yourself.
And now Sifus Korahais and Barnett are using their authority as moderators to open and close the Strategies and Tactics thread in order to make more slanderous remarks against Sifu Stier without giving anyone an opportunity to reply.
Originally posted by Antonius
This thread will be temporarily closed until the moderators have a chance to clean things up and split the posts into more appropriately named topics.
Sifu Korahais closed the thread while I was in the middle of posting, requiring me to make my post in one of the other three threads devoted to abusing Sifu Stier. Sifu Korahais ostensibly closed the thread temporarily in order to do maintenance, but, shortly after, Sifu Barnett use his authority as moderator to open the thread and make a rather lengthy post with more personal attacks against Sifu Stier, continuing to make reference to "shallow" knowledge and "low level" techniques, and comparing Sifu Stier, a man with a B.F.A in Music, Masters Degree in Science and Oriental Medicine, to someone who has not graduated elementary school. When someone has spent many years of hard and diligent work earning his credentials and an educational degree for his profession, comparing him to a person who has not finished elementary school is definitely an insult and a personal attack, both of which are forbidden by the forum rules. Sifu Stier’s B.F.A in Music, Masters Degree in Science and Oriental Medicine is a matter of fact and can not be disputed by Sifus Korahais or Barnett without substantial proof, lacking which it is libelous to question the validity of his education. And all of these personal attacks are being made contrary to Sifu Stier's, my own, several Shaolin Wahnam students’, and other forum members' repeated requests to discontinue referring to Sifu Stier in such an antagonistic way.
Will Sifus Korahais and Barnett continue to open and close the Strategies and Tactics thread, allowing only them the opportunity to voice their opinions, in spite of their repeated claims that they permit criticism by forum members? I now accept Sifu Korahais’ assertion that this forum is certainly not a democracy as its rules are being flaunted by its two moderators.
Best wishes,
Michael
Take kindness and benevolence as basis.
Take frankness and friendliness to heart.
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I am still indebted to you for your kindness. Send my regards to everyone in your lovely family.
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