Forgiveness

[Rozenn]

Hello friends,

the past week has thrown me into what feels like a relapse of closing the heart and I'd like to ask for your help, advice, opinions, and experiences that are ready to be shared.

I have an issue about forgiveness at the moment. Basically, I'd like to move on in my relationships and not leave them behind me like I tend to do. But memories of being humiliated, let down, unvalued by the very same people stop me from starting afresh and fully appreciate what they are doing right in the present. Needless to say, those people find it unfair but I can't force it, I haven't forgiven them, even if I've wanted to.

I can only guess that very compassionate people have enough strength in them to fly over the attacks from people and can therefore be compassionate towards them, but what if you don't have that strength? How much can one forgive? How long would you stay around people (family or friends) having forgiven them if they're the kind of people who'll keep on hurting / attacking you? Does forgiveness imply that the relationship gets back to level 0 of resentment against gratitude, say? Or would you act on things even if they've been forgiven (like putting some distance between you and the other person who's been hurtful)? What is practicing compassion if one can't force oneself to forgive although one wants to?

I'm feeling very confused at the moment, rushes of feelings in all directions, so any participation will help me settle about how I feel deeper down, by reaction. So I thank you in advance.

Respect and care for you all
Rozenn

[barrys]

Rozenn,

Useful questions for me.

In my relationship with my brother I had a very difficult situation a few years ago. It resulted in me losing a job. Other people got annoyed on my behalf and I pretended I wasn't. Over time it turned out to be a good thing - for a number of practical and general life reasons. I also realised I was angry about some things he had done. I also realised I had played a part in what had happened. I also realised that the past had played a part in both our actions i.e. we weren't operating based on what was happening right then but largely based on a fear/resentment born in the past. I also realised my life would be poorer without him and his family in my life. I also remembered he is my little brother. For me it is not that lack of forgiveness is wrong or that resentment is wrong - they just aren't helpful. When I am awake enough to remember the lessons I have learnt in this area, and awake enough to be aware of my own actions, it is no chore to forgive or be grateful for him being alive and in my life.

However, I have also been around a couple of people who at the time weren't helpful for me to be around. I didn't have the ability at the time to not be hurt by them. In one case out of luck and in another case consciously I stopped being around them. That seemed to make sense at the time.

However, I have also seen the Dalai Lama talk about valuing the people one has "difficulties" with. It is they who allow us to practise tolerance and compassion. This makes sense in my life. Sometimes I have been grateful, sometimes I haven't. Personally I have found life to be better when I was grateful. Sometimes I chose to be grateful rather than being blessed with the gift of gratefulness.

I am experiencing a situation at the moment where I didn't realise I might need to forgive someone. I hadn't realised I was angry about something. The something was a fact of life. I was angry that in this person's presence I had come to experience this fact of life. I don't know what the impact of this will be. I was told that "all pain prepares the soul for wisdom". I add "but don't expect me to be grateful for it at the time". (still no emoticon for rueful grin).

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this for myself,

Barry

[Rozenn]

Thanks Barry.
I thought this thread had its place in the School of Letting Go and Opening the Heart

I also truly value and am grateful for the people around me to be part of my life, even the ones that I get on less with. But it is the pain that comes back to the present that I find unhelpful and unforgiving. Yet how do you let go of a pain is still a bit of a blur mystery to me.

Would you say that forgiving means the pain is forgotten or lessenned? Or else?

Gratefully,
Rozenn

[Antonius]

Would you say that forgiving means the pain is forgotten or lessenned? Or else?

I am still wrestling with issues of forgiveness and am looking forward to other responses, but I would hazard to say that it is less about forgetting/lessening the pain and more about accepting it.

[Jonny Say]

Dear Rozenn,

I was reading the following part of your post and it made me recall a conversation/advice I have been given before.

I can only guess that very compassionate people have enough strength in them to fly over the attacks from people and can therefore be compassionate towards them, but what if you don't have that strength? How much can one forgive? How long would you stay around people (family or friends) having forgiven them if they're the kind of people who'll keep on hurting / attacking you

Because we train an art that opens our hearts, and lets us feel compassion for all, some people make the mistake of thinking this softness implies we can allow ourselves to be walked over. This is not the case, sometimes the most compassionate thing to do can be to stand up to some one that continually hurts us. Then we are giving them the direction to grow as a person. We can understand the un-justness of someone's actions, we stand up to it and then we move on. What the other person decides to do from here is there decision but atleast we have tried to help.

I think as your training develops you will be amazed at how past wounds heal quicker and quicker, you can let go of present attacks and retain an open heart in these situations, and at the same time stand up for what you feel is right and just.

All the best

[Jamie Robson]

Dear All

Compassion is equally an internal process.

If someone was detrimental to your health or happiness, you demonstrate timing, spacing and decision making. This would be an act of compassion to everyone involved, rather than one.

Compassion is not without common sense.

Resent can often be described as a blockage. If you resent someone for a negative action, it is 'you' who allows the blockage to build. However, it is the individuals own blockages that have caused them to affect you.

To create a blockage because of someone elses blockage, is not benificial.

However, often what people describe as 'wrong doing' or 'insult' is simply one persons actions bringing anothers blockages to the surface. In this case, the supposed 'wrong do-er' is helping the other person, by highlighting their blockage, creating an opputunity to clear it.

Forgiveness? Be true to yourself, listen to your heart and the desicion is easy.

Best Wishes

[barrys]

Rozenn,

A happy, smiling ex-buddhist monk I used to know said that he had practised martial arts and sometimes while being held in locks his master suggested he smiled saying "It is only pain". However, this man also committed suicide after something came into his life that he didn't want. I don't know the relationship between these things and I am still not clear what is to be learned from this. However, whatever he learnt from it he also committed suicide.

Currently my perspective re: pain is similar to Siheng Anthony's - more about being aware it is there, which is some kind of acceptance of it. I can only live with an awareness of excruciating pain for so long. Maybe then it becomes transformed. Makes me think of that prayer "God grant me ... the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, ... the courage to change the things I can, ... and the wisdom to know the difference".

I remember at the end of my first course with Sifu I bought one of his books and asked him to sign it for me. As I watched him sign something popped out of my mouth "I think I need more courage". He looked at me, it seemed like he was slightly surprised, and said (I think) "We all need more courage". I was surprised at how much better I felt even though at the time I was so in awe of him I wasn't able to listen to him so not sure if I heard him correctly.

For some reason this also makes me think of a story a wise old Irishman told me (I don't think I have shared it on the forum before but I am getting on a bit )

There was a man nicknamed Mick the Key who used to live in Dublin. He was a locksmith who seemed to have been around for ages and could be seen walking between jobs with his leather bag full of tools. One day he was called to a company who had somehow lost the keys to their safe. It was payday and their weekly paid staff wouldn't take kindly to not being paid. Mick went into the managing directors office where the safe was kept and got down to work watched by the md. After a minute or so the safe was open. "Ah Mick that was easy" said the md. Mick looked at him, closed the safe and as he walked out of the door said "If it was that F$^%in easy you can open it yourself".

By the way did you know that the latin root of the word resentment is sentire, which means to feel, see or perceive.

Still practising,

Barry

[Rozenn]

Brilliant, thank you

Thank you for generously sharing your own wisdom. It has brought me a lot of light already and hopefully to others too.

Now I understand that I haven't at times be true to myself. I spent decades purposely keeping unbearable pain contained in my heart. And so sometimes I got stunned by new attacks, not allowing me to be true to myself because I so wanted to be compassionate and rise above the attacks. And when I did react to the attack, I wasn't then able to move on, clearly out of a deeper / former blockage. I'll sleep over your wise words and probably move one beautiful step foward by tomorrow Deep thanks.

J-Say, you also answered another of my questions at the same time, ain't it brilliant! Cheers to you

Rozenn

[Jordan_LM]

Hello friends,

the past week has thrown me into what feels like a relapse of closing the heart and I'd like to ask for your help, advice, opinions, and experiences that are ready to be shared.

Rozenn,

First off I'd like to throw in a little disclaimer. As you know I haven't been practising chi kung for that much longer than you, so I may be talking nonsense here Infact, If anyone senior thinks I am talking nonsense I'd appreciate it being pointed out.

Something that has happened to me during my practise is that I have become consciously aware of certain issues that have hindered me as a person. Without chi kung these things might have remained locked away and hidden, but as I cleanse deeper they come to the surface.

So, what you are experiencing may not be a closing of the heart, but a realisation of issues which may already be keeping your heart closed. If so, this could be a step in the right direction! (even if it is not entirely pleasant).

I think that the mental tension caused by trying to force yourself to forgive someone could make the situation worse, so maybe it is better to try to relax and trust that the blockage will be cleared in time.

take care,
Jordan.

[Jamie Robson]

'Without Spelling Mistakes'

Dear All

Compassion is equally an internal process.

If someone was detrimental to your health or happiness, you demonstrate timing, spacing and decision making. This would be an act of compassion to everyone involved, rather than one.

Compassion is not without common sense.

Resent can often be described as a blockage. If you resent someone for a negative action, it is 'you' who allows the blockage to build. However, it is the individuals own blockages that have caused them to affect you.

To create a blockage because of someone else’s blockage, is not beneficial.

However, often what people describe as 'wrong doing' or 'insult' is simply one persons actions bringing another’s blockages to the surface. In this case, the supposed 'wrong do-err' is helping the other person, by highlighting their blockage, creating an opportunity to clear it.

Forgiveness? Be true to yourself, listen to your heart and the decision is easy.

Best Wishes

[Rozenn]

I've read things I so needed to read / hear, even twice . Thanks Jordan, what a brilliant post! Your view is also a revelation for me.
(How many lessons can one learn in one day?! (rethorical, you don't have to answer this one ))

[PaulW]

I can only guess that very compassionate people have enough strength in them to fly over the attacks from people and can therefore be compassionate towards them, but what if you don't have that strength? How much can one forgive? How long would you stay around people (family or friends) having forgiven them if they're the kind of people who'll keep on hurting / attacking you? Does forgiveness imply that the relationship gets back to level 0 of resentment against gratitude, say? Or would you act on things even if they've been forgiven (like putting some distance between you and the other person who's been hurtful)? What is practicing compassion if one can't force oneself to forgive although one wants to?

(Opinion disclaimer 'n stuff)

I would disagree with that Rozenn, I would suggest that very compassionate people don't attach value to other people's attitudes, oppinions or actions in regards to themselves. If somebody has given you a low value and you feel unvalued, then you've let yourself be valued by somebody, there's no reason to assume this person is psychologically healthy or well balanced. There's no reason why you can't be the person doing the valuing and hand those out in a fair and compassionate way as somebody who is caring and aware of other people's emotions.

I think somebody can do something that won't need to be forgiven until it is time, if you forgive right away somebody might think they can get away with more or have no reson to believe they did any damage in the first place, saying no can be more compassionate than saying yes. Letting them right back in to do more damage is not being compassionate to yourself.

[Joan]

Hi Rozenn and everybody

What great answers.

Rozenn, I don't believe that your heart is closing again, as Jordan mentioned, some deep negative emotions are surfacing and it may just feel like that for a while. You are doing fine.

May I suggest the following:

When in standing meditation at the end of your practice, GENTLY forgive whoever you feel you need to forgive. Do this very gently. And let go of the outcome. Letting go of the outcome is important.

You may also bless this person if you wish.

I like the following passage:

'How do we experience painful circumstances without becoming embittered by them?'

''By seeing them as lessons and not as retribution.. Trust life, my friends. However far afield life seems to take you, this trip is necessary. You have come to traverse a wide terrain of experience in order to verify where truth lies and where your distortion is in that terrain. you will then be able to return to your home center, your soul self, refreshed and wiser.''

As we all continue our practice, we clear more and more of the rubbish that has been hoarded over many many years. In that respect, we can't expect an 'instant' clearance. It does take a little time.

Smile from the Heart,
Joan.

[Darryl]

Forgiveness

If anyone senior thinks I am talking nonsense

I think everyone talks nonsense so - doesn't matter .

And on topic,

I am, by nature, a very forgiving person. One reason why I am a forgiving person is that I accept that people are not always responsible for their own actions, that it is not always you they are angry at and it is not always their fault that they are angry. There are so many other events happenning in their life that to view it as a 'them at me' situation is actually extremely arrogant and egotistical. They may just be venting emotion, letting go of prior hurt or trying to deal with something that they can't understand or control.

One of the real sorrows is that, usually, people are far quicker to hurt their own loved ones than they are to hurt a complete stranger. If you do find yourself in a situation where someone is attacking you (verbally, emotionally or even physically), don't view it as an attack unless it is one. Accordingly, don't take it as an attack if it isn't one and that includes letting yourself be used as a target. If you are not the focus, then redirect them to wherever the target is (which is not always the same as the initial starting point).

An example is to help the person redirect their energy towards a productive solution, usually by letting the trapped energy free itself (by emotion, by action, by realisation). Forgiveness doesn't mean acceptance, but acceptance is part of forgiveness. Another way of looking at it or describing it is to let the past stay in the past. A lot of times, people seem to cling to negative (or positive) events and carry them with them long after the initial event has passed. In effect, their blockage would have already cleared itself but their own actions keep it alive, especially for them.

A great way of finding out if you are actually able to forgive, free from ego, is to ask yourself one simple question - do you forgive others, or do you forgive yourself?

[Rozenn]

actually extremely arrogant and egotistical

YOU'RE TALKING TO ME???

Does this mean that you're able and willing to forgive anything and anybody regardless of whether you take action in return to their hurtful behaviour?

very compassionate people don't attach value to other people's attitudes

Paul and Darryl, you reminded me of the following. Every time I felt hurt so that I didn't/wouldn't/couldn't let the pain go, it was always to do with my own need, my own imbalance as well as the loved person's. You know, you're in a fragile situation / state of mind and she / he carelessly humiliates you there and then. IF I feel strong enough, I totally see the point you're making and I can more often than not actually see through the other person and forgive her / his action. IF I'm fragile myself, then I only feel hurt. So this brings me back to the question (answering it in the same time), in that you probably need to have enough of an inner strength, a sense of self, a core to you, (or what some might call self-confidence?) to be able to forgive. This also helps me see clearer in what my blockages are and will keep me alert next time I feel I'm a target.

Thanks Joan, I have tried many times to forgive in my Chi Kung practice, and I got surprised to see that I still hadn't managed it in fact. That is where I got my most recent realisation, but I also understand better now that by patiently continuing to gently come closer to forgiveness, with trust, I will complete it one day. This hope alone brings me a lot of strength. Thanks for your care and guidance.

Rozenn