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One question: Do the people who have been cured of diabetes or hypertension take any medication? How do they know they have been cured?
That's two questions.
You would have to speak to them directly for the specifics, but again, I don't quite understand your logic. With both hypertension and diabetes, Western medicine offers stabilization, not a cure. This means that patients are on the medication for years, and must remain on it indefinitely.
Let's presume that a patient learns from Sifu Wong and, after practicing qigong for, say, 8 months, no longer needs his medication. In the case of diabetes, presume that the patient can now eat sugar normally, whereas before he could not. In the case of hypertension, presume that the patient's blood pressure has been reduced from Stage I, II, or III Hypertension to Normal.
Antonius,
It is not what I consdier a cure but the objective criteria relating to definition.
Cure: the initial disease condition no longer exits and s/he no longer is taking the medicines.
A decrease in medication usage is not a cure but there is a cost savings which can be quantified. In the case of diabetes, it is not sugar per se but a combiantion of insulin resistance and the inability to extract it from muscles.
A reduction in blood pressure is not a cure. People can lower HBP without qigong but those who return to normal do so by regualting weight, diet and physical activity.
There are good studies of acupuncture being used clinically. But acupuncture is the most recognizable Chinese medical practice and so people have been looking at it for years.
Generally speaking, I don't think the Western medical establishment has the first clue what Chi Kung is. They know what Tai Chi is, but then not real Tai Chi Chuan. It will come in time, with increased education and patient demand.
I have said it elsewhere and I say it here again :
If it works, then it works. I prefer to be cured (or, to play the devil's advocate, only to have a 'better' condition) without knowing the ins and outs, rather than being explained with complicated words why I am still sick. When the goal is achieved -or reasonably reached-, why bother with intellectual explanations?
Dear Yeniseri :
I understand your dedication in researching these ins and outs. And I respect your effort. I respect all efforts made to give the sick and weak a chance to restore their health and enjoy life. Personally, I am a lover of simple, direct and effective means, with no harm done to the patient. I must say, sincerely, that Chinese Medicine offers a better perspective than Western Medicine on that level. My opinion though.
This does not mean that Western Medicine is useless. But I have seen so many ... hmmmm ... how could I say this ... Western Medicine 'errors' aggravating the patient's state. The worst part is that in most of those cases (where the condition of the patient get much worse after he/she got treated) the treatments were given accordingly to the Western Medicine paradigm. In other words, the fault lied not in the doctor, but in the western medical system .I could even start a thread on this subject.
Back to diabete and hypertension:
With Western Medicine, on those particular subjects, people intellectualize to understand why it doesn't work.
With Chinese Medicine, on those same subjects, people are happy to realize that it works.
Needless to say, in some cases Chinese Medicine (acupuncture or Chi Kung or herbs ...) doesn't work. But for reasons outside this medical paradigm.
Best wishes,
Maxime
Maxime Citerne, Chinese Medicine, Qigong Healing & Internal Arts
Western medicine has always been practically minded. Physicians have tried almost anything to cure people. Before modern drugs and surgery, people used blood letting, hot baths, cold baths, diet, electric shocks (still used and do work), hypnosis (also neat), saunas, exercise programs, exorcism, and it goes on.
But Western physicians have by far had the best success with modern medicine, modern surgery, vaccines, nutrition (like supplementing salt and milk with vitamins), sanitation programs, etc. If there were big and well done studies showing that chi kung cured the cancers that chemo, surgery and radiation didn't, then nobody would have problems using it. None at all.
But I suspect the problem the Chinese camp faces is the same as the Western camp: patient compliance. People aren't going to actually practice their chi kung twice a day, just as they aren't going to actually diet and exercise to control their diabetes either. It's obvious to those that have practiced chi kung that it works, but getting other people, especially sick people, to practice it properly is going to be tough. Individuals might, but I don't know if it will work on a population level in North America any time soon.
Maxime :
Great start for a new thread. Since you speak French ( I suppose ), I suggest that you start it in both languages, French and English, so we can have more discussions in the french pages. Allez-y, mon ami!
Western medicine has always been practically minded. Physicians have tried almost anything to cure people. Before modern drugs and surgery, people used blood letting, hot baths, cold baths, diet, electric shocks (still used and do work), hypnosis (also neat), saunas, exercise programs, exorcism, and it goes on.
But Western physicians have by far had the best success with modern medicine, modern surgery, vaccines, nutrition (like supplementing salt and milk with vitamins), sanitation programs, etc. If there were big and well done studies showing that chi kung cured the cancers that chemo, surgery and radiation didn't, then nobody would have problems using it. None at all.
Respectfully, I must I disagree with your last two sentences. You gave one reason yourself in the following paragraph, but I'll provide another: the difference between 'real' and 'apparent'.
Relatively speaking, chi kung (and TCM in general) is more 'real' when western medicine is more 'apparent'. The reason for this is that western medicine targets the symptoms, therefore often bringing immediate results that are easily observed. Because the initial cause of the illness remains unattended, the illness may re-manifest in the future - but not to worry, the cure worked wonders last time, why not this time too!
On the other hand, chi kung targets the actual root of the problem, often leaving the symptoms for the body itself to handle when natural balance has been restored. Furthermore, chi kung's major strength is in curing and preventing illnesses that have not caused any symptoms so far. The problem here is that there may not be obvious signs of chi kung 'working'. The effects may be apparent in the long term only.
I believe this is exactly why chi kung's effectiveness in curing illness is so difficult to prove so that even the sceptics are convinced: it doesn't necessarily cure the 'illness' in question, i.e. the symptom, but only enables the body ('body' as in the western paradigm) to cure itself - which makes it all look like a miracle or just pure luck. From a certain point of view the sceptics are actually correct: chi kung does not cure any 'western illnesses', it's the body that does it. (Of course, in this case the situation may be different, if chi is used directly to 'disperse' the tumour somehow.)
In short: western medicine promises instant relief in a tempting package, even when the effects may not be that wonderful especially in the long term.
But I suspect the problem the Chinese camp faces is the same as the Western camp: patient compliance. People aren't going to actually practice their chi kung twice a day, just as they aren't going to actually diet and exercise to control their diabetes either. It's obvious to those that have practiced chi kung that it works, but getting other people, especially sick people, to practice it properly is going to be tough. Individuals might, but I don't know if it will work on a population level in North America any time soon.
Exactly. It's much easier just to lay down and leave everything to the doctor, as that is why he gets paid. I believe this problem is much greater in the 'Chinese camp'.
Furthermore: many people may not even realize their mistake when they fail to follow instructions (whether from a western doctor or a chi kung master - or a kung fu instructor). They really don't understand how critical part of the procedure it is that they do it, they just blame the doctor instead and say that the method doesn't work. They don't do this from malice, they do this because they don't see things clearly.
[QUOTE=Antonius] I've heard of Gurus in India who go years without eating, and I've read about Taoist Immortals in Viet Nam who don't even need to drink water!QUOTE]
Wow this thread has goes well, me I still haven't yet read the Zhineng Qigong Homepage information but soon I will!
Well is always good to hear from you Sifu Antonius!
Yes: Gurus in India who go years without eating, but they drink water in their long fasting time!
Have a nice day every body, and right now I'm going to read more about: Zhineng Qigong! Take Care every body, and yes lets continuo be positive! Bye!!!
PS.Well I have hear about Africans that sleep deep down in a coffin like deaths for a long period!
Hello! After reading the book: Life more abundant : the science of zhineng qigong, principles and practice : based on the original teachings of Ming Pang : a guide and sourcebook for the west by Jin, Xiaoguang
I have some comments about Chil Lel tm or Zhineng Qigong!
The Founder: Pang Lao Shi haved 19 Sifus and GrangMaster of Chi Kung!
Zhi means wisdom and intelligence
Neng means ability and capability
The present Zhineng Qigong is a fusion of the essence of many different Qigongs emerging out of Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, Traditional Chinese Medicine, Traditional Martial Arts, folk religions, modern science, medicine and philosophy.
It works if one belive and it doesn't work if one doubts.
Abiding the laws of Zhineng Qigong
1 Respect both the teacher and the Tao
2 Practice conscientiously and seriously
3 be relaxed, natural and tranquil
4 integrate practice(lian) whit rest and nourishment ( yang)
5 apply to the faculties of both concentration(ding) and observation in complementary fashion(hui)
When training various training various energy parts of the body are involved!
The dynamic spiritualization of matter, conversely, the dynamic materialization of spirit are achieved through the conscious delitation of the human energy field unto the circumambient cosmic force field within which it exist, re-stablishing the hightened interchange of primordial unconditioned energy with conditioned human energy!
Tai Chi bears some striking similarities to Zhineng Qigong: The Main intent of Tai Chi practice was the distribution of chi for the purposes of enhancing ones ability to deal whit external physical challenges, as opposed to self healing per se.
I am a licensed western medicine physician, and martial arts practitionar as well as I practice chi kung.
I'll try not to write long...but will share with you some results that I myself saw through chi kung and they are amazing.....yes chi kung lowers high blood pressure, and helps the hyperthyroid patient to not suffer from palpitations of heart and the patient after practicing chi kung can see that he/she are returning to euthyroid.
Plus, chi kung helps our immunity and our white blood cells will be more potent and so, we never catch a flu even if our closed ones around us have flu...am talking from my own experiance and from the observations in some of my patients.
when a person gets inflammation his red blood cells stuck together and this is because some inflammatory proteins get into the circulation and on tests we see high level of ESR ( Erythrocyte Sedimentation Rate)....but a chi kung practitionar will not see any high ESR because chi makes all cells in our bodies more natural and stronger...so an inflammatory process will not affect easily and if affects, the recovery is very fast.
I count myself fortunate and blessed that I am learning and practicing chi kung....Although am in another martial arts family, but count you all as brothers because the goal is same....martial arts and chi kung are for health and self preservation and they give us ability to help people around us.
Again as I said in another post...wish you all happy and joyful training.
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.I could even start a thread on this subject.
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