Full contact San Shou Competition/ Team selection

[Guest]

Hello everyone,

Just the thought of entering such a full-contact competition already builds confidence. I was a little sceptical though about the gloves, and how they will limit our Kungfu.

Tomorrow I'm going to the sports shop to get myself a pair and see for myself.

Last year, at the 10 Tiger Tournament, I used all random techniques instead of following the sequences I learnt and sticking with them. My guard was also not good. But even though I didn't won one match, I learned alot from that.

Pretty exciting . One question, what would be the appropriate footwear for the competition?

Best regards, Tim

[Mike H]

Animal Morphing

Turn a Kung fu Panda into a ferocious lean mean fighting machine....

An opportunity to lose weight, learn new skills and hone you're old, enjoy the path of development for yourself and most importantly each other, but above all... have fun

Fight well, Fight hard

I'm off to find a banana tree!!!

Best Wishes

Mike

[Matt F.]

I think I can ask my questions without the aid of videos or pictures (which I don't have an easy way of creating right now). Let me know if my questions aren't clear and I'll scrounge some pictures up.

1. Are straight kicks to the leg (such as White Crane Steps in Snow) allowed or only circular ones?

2. Are there restrictions on what part of the glove/fist you can strike with? Are back fists (e.g. Reverse Hanging of Golden Lotus, Hang a Golden Star at Corner) ok to use? What about hammer fists?

Hi Chris!

1) I would say that any kick (or strike/grip/throw) that is intended to break rather than sweep should be avoided. This, of course, will depend on the technique and the positioning of the fighters. Any sort of stomping kick into the back of the leg, with the intent to fold the knee in it's natural motion would be fine. Stomps to the front or side of the leg, with intent to break the knee by forcing it to bend in an unnatural direction should be avoided.

2) I see no reason to limit the use of the fist. If a fighter happens to have gloves that lack padding in a certain area of the fist, and he/she plans to use that to his/her advantage and try to cause more damage/injury, then the problem lies with the fighter and not with the type of strike that is used.

Yes, this is a full contact tournament. However, I doubt causing injury will be tops on anyone's list of goals. I would say, as a general rule, if you do not have full control over the technique (meaning you only hit with it as hard as intended, and only cause as little/much damage as intended) then you should not use it for this competition.

My 2 cents.

-Matt

[Robin]

Great answer Matt!

Just to let you guys know

we already have fighters signed up from the U.K. including England and Scotland, the U.S. and Belgium.

Nice one, keep signing up guys we will all benefit greatly from this experience.

Best

Robin

[JasD]

I'll probably enter, dependant on whether I can get a few decent full contact sparring sessions before the tournament.

What is the cost of entering the tournament?

Jas

[Andy]

Equipment Recommendations?

I've been looking for equipment for the tournament and have been boggled by the choice of brands!

I also noticed at the recent Spar Day that there is a big difference in quality between gloves and headgear from different manufacturers. So I was wondering if the Sparring Committee and others with relevant experience in full contact can recommend (with links for example) different equipment i.e.

Boxing gloves
Head Gear
(Competitors are urged to bring their own 14oz gloves and head gear, however these will be subject to inspection)

Dipped Foam Foot Pads and Shin gear
Trunks to fight in (no pants, as in international competitions)

I'm particularly looking for recommendations regarding headgear - ie some prohibit vision more than others - and 14oz gloves.

Also, the foam pads and shin gear - are these the amateur taekwondo type or the professional MMA type?

Many thanks in advance,

Andy

[namaste]

Q&A from 1999

just found this lovely relevant text from 1999! Thought I'd share...

Question 5

Is mat-practice (punching the air, kicking a bag, pulling punches, simulating combat) truly an effective means to train in the martial arts, or does one need to have more realistic combat training in order to fully realize the potential of a particular style?

Answer

Mat-practice is essential, but by itself is insufficient. Mat-practice provides the necessary force and skill to back the techniques learnt in solo training. If a student rushes into sparring without such preparation, he is likely to spar wildly, have little force, and be out of breath easily.

On the other hand, if he only undergoes mat-practice, even for many years, but has no training in sparring, he simply cannot spar. This is only logical, i.e. if you have no training in xyz, then you simply cannot perform xyz well — irrespective of whether xyz is martial art sparring, playing tennis, or driving a locomotive. Yet, it is amazing how many kungfu students have not learnt sparring.

Even if one has developed adequate force and skill from his mat-prctice, if he is asked to spar without first being trained how to spar, he would spar inefficiently — usually he would throw all his force and skill as well as the techniques he has learnt in solo practice, to the winds. This lack of methodical preparation to spar is probably the single most importnat reason why many kungfu students with many years of learning, suddenly become clowns or sitting ducks when facing attacks from karate, taekwondo or kickboxing students with only a few months' experience.

[Guest]

Hello,

I bought 6 oz gloves, and they fit perfect. Is that okay, or do I need the 14 oz?

And do we need the head-gear, or is that optional?

Practising with the gloves, well, clumsy at first, but it's not so bad when you get used to it. Only one month and a week now!!

Tim

[Grimlock]

Is it officially 14 oz. gloves we need for the tournament? For some reason, I thought I read somewhere it was 12 oz. gloves, although I can't find where that somewhere is (maybe it's in my head)!

[Robin]

Gloves, gloves and more gloves

Hi Guys,

Boxing gloves tend to be above 10oz and increase in size in accordance to 'hand size'. Hence if you have 'very large' hands it may be difficult to find a 10 oz glove to fit you, you may need to go up to 14oz.

For this competition anything between 10-14oz would be good.

Tim, are the 6 oz gloves you bought 'boxing gloves'?

If so they may be OK because I know you have smaller hands.

But if they are 'point sparring gloves with open hands' they are not OK.

All the best

Robin

[namaste]

reflections on my experience

Hi all, I'd like to present some thoughts on my experiences yesterday and in recent training for combat in general.

Restoring The Glory of Kung Fu:

I've mentioned before in this thread that I have no interest in entering competitions outside the school. However I know that there are those that do. I had two reasons for deciding to enter the Wahnam San Shou competition this year. 1) to help others who may want to enter competitions improve their combat skill under pressure by being a good sparring partner and 2) to test my combat efficiency under pressure. The latter reason presented the most challenges for me both technically and on many other levels.

Boxing gloves or no boxing gloves?

There is a long standing tradition in Wahnam of not using gloves or protection in our practice and there are many threads and information on Sitaigung's website and Q&A which explain why we don't use them. However in restoring the glory of kung fu my experience is that if brothers and sisters are going to enter external competitions to prove that kung fu can be used against other styles, then there is a absolute necessity to practice using other styles' rules and equipment. For the last six months I have been practising about 50% of the time with gloves on and without this preparation it would have been significantly more difficult to adjust to full contact sparring yesterday. The experience of someone coming at you full throttle directly at the head with gloves on is totally different to someone coing at you full throttle gloveless and stopping an inch short or ging past your head above, to the side or giving you a gentle tap. My experience was that although fighting without protective gear means that the 'threat' level is on one way 'higher', we also have to be much more controlled and safe and from my years of experience in wahnam, this has built up into a level of 'trust' that I won't get hit (at least not intentionally) and this in turn has meant that I never really learned what it was like to be in a real combat situation with a level of threat which could result in a hard punch to the head. Throws yes, technique and tactics yes, skills and force and flow yes, but actually getting hit and kicked hard, no. Now, there's no way I'd enter a bare knuckle fight at full force with the threat of real hits to the head - so to test my skills in this environment, the safety gear is essential.

But is it still real kung fu?
Well, clearly there's some things that have to be dropped when you put on the gear. Certain hand forms, techniques, grips and stikes become impossible and some tactics less simple to apply. This is a given. And the rules of a San Shou tournament also mean certain things aren't allowed. So the restrictions mean you can't 'test' the full range of things we learn in Wahnam. But if you look a bit deeper, you are still testing a good deal of the skills that we have in our system:

shen / staying at dantien
scholar warrior mind
Use of stances
three arrivals (heart/mind, feet, hands)
Strategy and tactics - hard against soft, soft against hard
Crossing the bridge / chasing the shadow
blocking, leaning, floating opponents attacks,
neutralising throws
footwork
USE OF COMBAT SEQUENCES!
...... the list of skills could go on and on....

So as far as I am concerned it's still the kung fu we know and love, even if all the aspects can't be used or tested. It still provides a very real and pressured environment in which to test the skills. I certainly wouldn't want to see gloves/protection being used as standard in our school but in certain situations I think they can be useful in a 'testing' environment. That level of threat that is created with gloves on actually makes you appreciate just how hard a bare knuckle black tiger would be or a full force white snake.... phew, I wouldn't want to be in front of one of those. One Hang Golden Star to the temple and it would be proper 'game over'. I don't think I really appreciated this before, until taking a few real belters to the head with gloves and headguard.


Why would I want to get kicked and hit?
I all honesty this was not the reason I got into kung fu, I am much more interested in overcoming illness (achieved), being healthy and happy 100% of the time (well on my way!), having mental clarity and being able to negotiate my daily life more effectively (yes regularly!) and experiencing spiritual awakening and joys (I have frequent glimpses ). So the combat aspect is somewhat down the list. I've never had a fight in my life and don't intend to. But on the recent Baguazhang course last week we were reminded of one of the key aims of practising kung fu and that is to be able to defend yourself. If you don't become combat efficient and you can't defend yourself then you're not practising correctly (or perhaps not practising kung fu at all!). I realised this year when the aims for the school were set, that I'd never really tested my skills in a pressured combat situation and this was after nearly seven years of being a part of this amazing family.

If I get kicked and punched have I failed in my training?
The simple answer for me is "no, of course not". It simply proves that there are areas to practice more. There is of course a sliding scale of skills and abilities within our school. Inevitably I knew I would be more combat efficient than some and less than others, or perhaps better specifically at some things and worse at others. Yesterday I lost two fights and won one. In all, I was hit and kicked. It hurt. Did I feel I failed? Not at all - I was able to defend myself better against some people than others and against some types of attack more than others - but one thing is for sure; I can now say, for the first time in seven years, that I can truly measure my progress in being able to defend myself compared to the first day I started in Wahnam. I wouldn't like to do this type of thing every day, or even every month, but I have a feeling I will enter whatever competition is on offer next year and test my skills again to see how I'm doing. Hopefully I will be able to report improvements. Maybe one day I'll be able to defend myself against anything that comes at me! And as Sitaigung said many times over the last week, "if you train kung fu for 20 years and only use it once to defend yourself, your family or a loved one then it is worth it.

My actual experience yesterday

I found it incredibly difficult to stay at my dantien. I'd done a lot of talking beforehand about trying to 'play' and remain joyful and happy within combat situations. I have to admit as soon as I failed to block my opponents first punch and I got hit and then kicked and everything was moving so fast, I forgot all about playing and having fun. It was a fight. It was quite scary. It's a very very strange experience to switch from standing next to your brother and giving him a hug and a smile just seconds before a fight and saying "have fun" to basically trying to knock each other block's off. Very strange indeed. Part of this experience sits uncomfortably with me. It's new, and unfamiliar. Sitaigung said that the competition was much improved from last year's Ten Tigers competition with students using more stances and more combat sequences. He said however there were opportunities for us to improve further of course...

A compassionate art
And was it a good example of our compassionate art of kung fu?.... that's an interesting question and one I'd like to open up to the forum. I'd really like to hear others' views on what I've posted. For someone who has never, ever hit anyone in my life it was an enlightening experience for me (there were a few slow motion moments where I could see my own fist landing directly and forcefully on it's target and this was very, very strange and a bit uncomfortable). I am happy to have tested my skills in being able to defend myself and I know what I need to work on (a long, long list before next year comes around!). It's given me much food for thought as well, but what do YOU all think?

[foxinsocks74]

Rich,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience. I've been reflecting too.

I wasn't planning on entering the tournament, as I've been going through some heavy cleansing for the past few months, and couldn't do any serious training. But I was 'persuaded' at the last minute -- and I'm actually very grateful for this as it was a very good learning experience.

I have to say that, even though Sifu said we all did very well, and that there were major improvements to last year, I personally felt like I had let him down by not being able to manifest something of the spirit of Shaolin Wahnam kungfu in the ring -- this was my main goal going in.

On paper, I could tell myself that I did really well, given that it was my first ever tournament, that I hadn't trained and that I'm a relative beginner, and I managed to remain in stances for much of the time and use a few sequences.

But I actually felt frustrated that, amidst the 'firehose' pressure of the oncoming barrages, I didn't have enough skill to do even the basics properly -- relax, let chi flow naturally while remaining rooted and solid in stance and feel the opponent's energy, as we normally do in training, and then apply an appropriate counter.

The result was that within the first minute of my first round, I was gasping for breath and my heart was pounding -- something that I haven't felt for a long time. I had reverted from internal force to external force, and as I don't do any external 'cardio' training I don't have very much 'external stamina' at all. It was a terrible feeling! By my second (and last) bout, I could barely stay on two feet. I felt like a fish on land.

l was also surprised by the disappearance of our usual light-hearted Shaolin spirit -- it was as if we suddenly felt genuinely threatened or afraid of getting hurt and resorted to basic threat response instincts. In some matches, one opponent was obviously stronger than the other, but it was like we all only had one 'full volume' setting for each other. It would have been wonderful if we had been able to transcend aside the animal fear/aggression instinct and relax, smile from the heart, feel the opponent's unique energy and respond with appropriate levels of force and technique for each opponent. We would also have used a fraction of the energy we expended!

This was the biggest issue for me -- how to maintain zen state of mind amidst the intensity of an all out attack. Afterwards, I asked Sifu if it was a question of practising the sequences more or strengthening the mind through stance training, and he said both are important. On reflection, I think it must be something like the transition we have to make from maintaining the same levels of inner stillness, relaxation and focus when we move from simple standing meditation to horse stance and from horse stance to combat sequences. The next step would be to get these to the level that one can maintain the same state even under an all out assault.

Part of me wants to 'throw in the towel' with regards to tournaments. I could say I'm getting too old for this and just focus on the joys of non-combat oriented training. But another part of me says this would be to walk away from an opportunity. I think it would be a truly great thing if we were able, together, to keep at this and break through the barrier. As Sifu said, we all have the basic skills and knowledge, its just a question of practice and confidence (and patience).

Personally I learned that I still need to progress a lot with my level of stance training and combat sequences, not to mention getting through my cleansing and to a stable health and vitality footing. But, nonetheless, something inside me now longs to be free and manifest, like the old masters, the superiority of our ancient art over all other forms of combat, and to do it with, joy and confidence that would inspire others to do the same – even if this takes a little time!

Entering external tournaments is not a priority for me, but I would like to know that I can defend myself and my loved ones against an attacker in the true noble Shaolin spirit, and the tournament was definitely very helpful for me to gauge my progress against this goal. One major learning is that , thanks to our internal force, taking a beating actually doesn't hurt that much, and so there isn't anything to fear when facing an opponent. Likewise, we can't really hurt our brothers (assuming we keep our intentions in the right place) so it should all just be good fun!

So I might be persuaded to enter again in the future.... But I will definitely need some help in working out an appropriate training regimen from my more experienced brethren!

Many thanks to everybody who participated – it was an honour to cross gloves with you and learn together. Many thanks to Robin Siheng and Tim Siheng for organising the day and convincing me to turn up!

[namaste]

you echo my feelings

Thanks Omar, you've really managed to capture well a lot of what I've been feeling. I know exactly what you mean about only being able to fight at one level (100%) and losing some of those qualities found in sparring in class; the levels of control, anticipation and appropriate response. I do think though. that you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. I too felt I didn't do even half as well as I had hoped, maybe 20-25% if truth be told, however don't forget out of the whole school, there were only ten participants in the competition - ten people who (as you acknowledged yourself) did manage to stay in stances and use combat sequences and who showed great spirit in stepping into that ring in the first place. I am 37 - in most competitive fighting arts I'd be considered past it. However, I still had the shen, clarity, purpose and will to try my best and compete when the opportunity presented itself. Perhaps we were far from 'picture perfect' in many ways, but we did step up to the challenge. For me, that took a lot of courage and working through blockages that I know is all part of my training and all good progress, and there are things I've learned about myself that I don't think I could have achieved any other way.

Well done brother and may you have a peaceful progression into whatever the next phase of your training is.

Rich

[JasD]

Thanks for your experiences guys,

We had some good fights Rich. Don't be too hard on yourself, I've trained the same amount of time as you, I'm 10 years younger and have a reach advantage too which I felt helped. Also, in the fight at the start, I had the advantage, but you showed great courage and stamina to keep coming forward and you took the advantage then.

I still feel I can't use Kung fu for fighting as I would like: i.e. using stances and sequences well, not getting sapped of strength, seeing the opponent clearly and avoiding most hits with a good stance and footwork.

But I definately feel like I'm better after the experience, because at least I know where I really stand. And therefore what to do to improve.

For example, in training, I can do sequences/ sets at full power for 20 mins, without getting tired. 2 mins of full contact gets me more tired.

I think I forgot to breathe, and the mouthguard and head gear strap around the throat probably didnt help. This and the fear/ unusualness of the situation, probably made me tired, and the unusualness of applying sequences which I dont know I can actually get to work in practice on someone resisting hard and fast.

Also never had someone hitting so hard and fast at me with full contact.

I guess the most important thing is going to be practicing full contact with a partner, what you want to be able to use.

A compassionate art? In one sense, yes its not nice to hit your brother hard, especially when they've taken too much. But without the experience and the pressure, you wont improve as much. Full contact is something to definitley do occasionally, to give you more confidence in your Kung Fu to say you can use it.

I would much rather get pounded in the face by aggresive attacks with gloves in a safe environment (with someone who you know will stop if your out and judges with your safety in mind) in order to get some experience and be more comfortable with such a situation, than to lose a street fight against a brawler after 7 years of practice, and wishing that Id had some more live practice.

After we've made the improvements, I'm sure our confidence, relaxation, presence of mind will be even greater, because it is required, and in that sense it will be worth it in daily life too.

[namaste]

I would much rather get pounded in the face by aggresive attacks with gloves in a safe environment (with someone who you know will stop if your out and judges with your safety in mind) in order to get some experience and be more comfortable with such a situation, than to lose a street fight against a brawler after 7 years of practice, and wishing that Id had some more live practice.

this made me chuckle! I'd much rather not get pounded at all! But for sure, I absolutely agree that if I'm going to learn a lesson about my ability to defend myself, I would rather it be through sparring with a Wahnam family member in a safe environment than out on the street.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and kind words guys

Rich