Strategy and Tactics for Combat

[subclock]

Hi , I was wondering if you could clear a few things up for me if possible .

I have noticed that in free sparring there is a lot of movement , for example when somebody tries to step on , or kick your front bow-arrow knee you can simply step back to avoid it . What changes in tactics would you have to consider if you are forced to fight in a cluttery room , or are with your back to the wall , and your opponent advances quickly and aggressively ?

Also in Sifu Wong's excellent book " The Art of Shaolin Kung-Fu" he said that when fighting somebody bigger and stronger than you , that you shouldn't approach them head on . What would you do to gain advantage if say you are being confronted in a narrow alleyway and had no other choice but to face him head on ( I would run away of course , but in my question that is not an option ) ?

thanks for any advice you can give me
Kevin

[Antonius]

Hi Kevin.

I will answer these questions assuming that combat is the only choice. This is rarely the case. Running is usually an option.

If forced to fight in a cluttered room, I would maneuver to use the terrain to my advantage. I might, for example, knock objects in my path as I backpedal, then attack as my opponent tries to step through them. This would be an example of the principle "Attack the opponent's unexpectedness."

If forced to fight with my back to a wall, I would employ the principle "Attack continuously.”

If my opponent advances quickly and aggressively with no regard for his own safety, I could use several principles. If he attacks with kicks and punches, I might use "Trick an opponent into advancing without success; strike decisively with one blow." If he tries to tackle me, I would use "Starting later but arriving earlier" to strike his exposed head as he enters.

If confronted by a stronger opponent in a narrow alley, I could still use the principle "If strong, enter from the side." This tactic does not require much room. For example, if a punch comes to my face, I can slip under and outside the punch and counter with a Leopard Punch to his floating ribs even in the narrowest alley, thus employing the tactic of "No defense, direct counter" in combination with "Enter from the side."

Also, remember that strength is not necessarily a matter of size. For example, during sparring, I often find that I am "stronger" that many of my partners despite the fact that they tower over me. (I’m only 5’7”, but for some reason many of my partners seem to be over 6’!) This is especially true with people who have no internal force. In this case, I can comfortably enter from the front and overpower them with my superior force.

Generally speaking, you want to avoid an opponent's strong points, but if you are sure that your strongest point is much stronger than his strongest point, you can meet it head-on. For example, a master of Iron Arm confronting a Thai Boxer with powerful whirlwind kicks might choose to meet the kick head-on with his arm. (Normally, you would not block these powerful kicks, but try to intercept or thread them instead.) In this case, you would be pitting your best weapon against his best weapon. The victor would be decided by force. A Thai Boxer kicking a master with a high-level Iron Arm would break his own leg.

[hakfudisciple]

I like your thinking.

Antonius ,

There's not much i can think of to add to your reply you pretty much covered everything.

Kevin,

I'm not sure if your question was for everyone or just for students of Sifu Wong Kew Kit?

I'm a Black Tiger stylist although i've studied Bak Sil Lum (N.Shaolin) and Cheung Kune Pai (Sung Style Longfist). Hak Fu Moon is where my heart is.Black Tiger uses many different styles of attack just like Antonius spoke of.We also use a blitzkreig type of attacks.Which means you pretty much throw everything including the kitchen sink at your attacker.Black Tiger relies alot on speed so we work on speed alot. If your opponent starts to attack you intercept the attack with your own in most cases or like Antonius said side step the attack and counter.

jeff

[subclock]

Thank you both for your replies , they were very helpfull . I agree that it is a better option to run . I am a pacifist and dissagree with solving problems physically . I asked because I find the technical side of Shaolin Kung Fu quite fascinating , and not because I intend to try and use those techniques at the first opportunity. My Sigung said that often the best Kung Fu is a warm friendly smile.

thanks again
Kevin

[Antonius]

My Sigung said that often the best Kung Fu is a warm friendly smile.

So true. So true.

My old Karate school was a bastion of tough guys and street fighters. Some of my teachers had been in literally hundreds of street fights. One has to wonder what kind of energy a person projects in order to get into so many fights.

I was on that path for a while. As a brown belt approaching black belt, I was all but looking for opportunities to use my skills. In retrospect, it's obvious that I was projecting negative, aggressive energy. I'm glad to be off that path.

Now, I smile. If your heart is open and your energy flowing smoothly, you carry a different energy on the street. Living in New York City, I have many opportunities to use this style of Kungfu. It is simply amazing how well this works. When someone steps on your toes, you are less likely to get angry because your energy is flowing smoothly. This allows you to smile where another person might have started a fight.

So keep smiling, folks. It's first-class Kungfu!

[Jeffrey Segal]

nice posts guys

It's truly wonderful to observe that smiling (from the Heart) is such a recurring theme on this forum. So simple (but maybe not easy until one has acquired the skill) and yet so profound and beneficial!

I definitely agree with Anthony’s comments about the kind of energy different people on different paths are likely to project.

Btw, all the technical information about tactics was also fascinating, even for us Taijiquan children.

[Antonius]

It took me a while to dig this one up, but I think it might be of interest here. The following is an excerpt from an answer Sifu gave in 1998:

Question 1
You have mentioned that Wahnam Shaolin does not emphasize Golden Bell techniques. If an attacker gets pass all your hand and leg defences, and strikes your body, how would you respond?
Michael, Malaysia -- Aug (1) 1998

Answer 1
I would do any one of the following:

...move back a step to avoid the strike
...rotate my waist to deflect the attack
...curve in the body to "swallow" the attack
...move my body forward to press against his striking hand, thereby preventing the implementing of the strike and simultaneously strike him with my head
...lean back sideway and strike him with a side kick -- the leaning back enables me to avoid his attack
...pull back one elbow to deflect the strike and simultaneously strike him from a side or from behind with my forearm or hand
...jump up and strike him with my knee -- the jumping itself enables me to avoid his strike
...move aside and strike his ribs with my shin
...lean back frontally as if being hit (but not actually) and tap his groin with the instep of my foot, using a pattern called "Lie on Sea and Observe the Sky"
...turn around, lean forward and tap his groin with the sole of my foot, using a pattern called "Dragonfly Dots Water".


Please note that some of the responses can be implemented even if I were pressed against a wall.

It is a fallacy to think that in a situation you described, a person would not be hurt if he has Golden Bell. A master with internal force, such as Cosmos Palm, may penetrate the Golden Bell. Even if the opponent has no internal force or the internal force is not powerful enough to break the Bell, he still can hurt the Golden Bell exponent by driving a leopard-punch into his throat, thrusting two fingers into his eyes, or smashing a knee onto his groin. Someone skillful enough to get past your hands and legs, is likely to know such Bell-breaking techniques.

Your chances of escaping unhurt from such a situation are more if you are well versed in some of the techniques I have described above. The time to master these techniques as well the relevant skills is probably less than the time to master Golden Bell.

This of course does not mean Golden Bell is useless. Personally speaking, I like Golden Bell; it is far more artistic and sophisticated than Iron Shirt.

[subclock]

Thanks Antonius . that was very interesting and informative .

It reminds me a little of what Sifu Wong says somewhere in The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu about Iron Fist . From what I recall , he said that in today's world some techniques are impractical to spend a lot of your time on when there are others that will benefit you in a more wholesome way ( For instance , instead of training a devastating technique such as iron fist , which could end up killing somebody , your time would be better spent on something like Lifting the Sky , and in my case Pushing Hands ), improving multiple facets of your daily life .

Sifu Wong's words were phrased better but a friend has my book so you will have to live with my bad grammar .
Kevin

[Antonius]

Good point, Kevin. Let's begin a new discussion here:

http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=463

[juszczec]

Re: strategy and tactics for combat

Originally posted by subclock
What changes in tactics would you have to consider if you are forced to fight in a cluttery room , or are with your back to the wall , and your opponent advances quickly and aggressively ?

Destroy their physical or mental balance. This will create an opening for another technique, which creates an opening for another technique and so on and so on until you can get away.

when fighting somebody bigger and stronger than you , that you shouldn't approach them head on . What would you do to gain advantage if say you are being confronted in a narrow alleyway and had no other choice but to face him head on

Short list:

attack the lead leg and continue attacking or start running
throw something at them and attack
get to the outside of the first attack and counter
get to the inside of the first attack and counter (not my favorite)

Long list:

Grab a training partner, walk thru some situations (slowly at first), note the responses you are most comfortable with, try them with other training partners who attack with increasing intensity.

Mark

[Sifu Stier]

Greetings to all!

I just recently read through this thread, and thought I might add my humble opinion to the mixture of posts already here.

Through the years, I have learned that the best strategy for combat is no strategy at all except sufficient physical training to insure ample strength, speed, stamina, endurance, balance, body control, relaxed flexibility, and so forth, to prepare the body for maximum efficiency of spontaneous response.

Similarly, sufficient meditation training to insure ample mental and emotional calmness, focus, and presence in the moment seems to always allow automatic reactions to manifest the most appropriate tactics for the situation and circumstances at hand from the depths of the super-conscious mind.

Sifu Stier

[Andrew]

I'm sorry Sifu Stier but I have to disagree with you. I assume you wanted the Shaolin Wahnam instructors to disagree with you when you wrote your post considering other comments which have been made on this topic elsewhere. So I didn't want to disappoint you

If what you said were true, then a well trained and skillful dancer -- one who has developed "ample strength, speed, stamina, endurance, balance, body control, relaxed flexibility, and so forth" -- who also practiced meditation would be an excellent fighter. I find that somewhat difficult to believe.

It is also interesting to note that the great Masters over the centuries spent much time developing and refining tactics and strategies for combat to improve their combat efficiency. Your comment above implies they were wasting their time.

I do, however, agree that once you have trained and practiced the relevant strategies and tactics enough, they become a kind of second nature and the intellectualisation most consider to be needed for the successful implementation of strategy and tactics is set aside. But if this is what you meant to say, then I'm afraid the way you wrote it was most unclear. I'd appreciate it if you'd write with more clarity in future.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

Andrew:

I don't see anything in my post here that criticizes or finds fault with any of the comments previously posted in this thread by Wahnam Instructors or anyone else. But it doesn't surprise me that you would think otherwise.

If argument and debate is all you're looking for, that's likely to be all you see! The fact of our differing opinions doesn't necessarily mean that either of us has to be wrong.

Relax! Take a deep breath. It's OK. Really!

Regards ~

Sifu Stier

[Simon]

If I face up to someone who I know does Judo then before we start I'll have various ideas in mind. Keep them at a distance and avoid bow arrow stance for a quick example. If during the combat he does something unexpected like starting to kick of course I can still adapt (well, so far so good).

I'm sure everyone agrees on this need for flexibility.
But is it possible to be totally strategy free? If you walked into a room to find yourself facing a fifteen year old wrestler you may think strategies aren't too important. If he was holding a gun when you walked in your reaction, and therefore strategy, might change (like running back out pretty damn quick).

It's yet another area that needs clear definition of terms before we can have a worthwhile debate. Differences between what is classed as a tactic and what is called a strategy for example.

Cheers

Simon

[Michael Durkin]

Sifu Stier,

Through the years, I have learned that the best strategy for combat is no strategy at all except sufficient physical training to insure ample strength, speed, stamina, endurance, balance, body control, relaxed flexibility, and so forth, to prepare the body for maximum efficiency of spontaneous response.

What do you mean by sufficient ? Could you elaborate on this as its too vague. How much is sufficient ?

And surely there was purpose in what ever training you were doing. You must have had a purpose of being able to move your limbs quickly and smoothly for example. And upon developing this speed in the limbs, you would have sought tactics and strategies to exploit your abilities and weaknesses in your opponent.

Training our body and mind to move in particular ways takes time and effort. Months, years, decades.


Whos played the board game - Chess ?

It takes literally minutes to explain how to move the pawns, bishops, rook, knights and other pieces. Moving the chess pieces is like the years martial artists spend learning to move their body, but it takes no time at all to learn how to move chess pieces in comparison. Each of these chess pieces has strengths and weaknesses just like human beings.

But what about tactics and strategies?

With only my complete knowledge that the rook moves in a particular way, it doesn't make one bit of difference that I know this when I play someone that has practiced strategy and tactics. I would be beaten quite quickly despite knowing how to move all my chess pieces perfectly.

I need tactics and strategy, as well as important aspects as clarity of thought, quick decision making to name a few (the meditation you mentioned).

I can see one day where after mastering tactics and strategies that the practitioner would become instantaneous with an excellent response without thought. But this would be after practice, practice and more practice of tactics and strategies with skill and techniques from a method and system that has been proven to work. This isn't the same as "no strategy at all" though.