Iron Fist vs. Cosmos Palm

[Antonius]

Subclock raised a good point in another thread (http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthre...s=&postid=2284). Let's continue the discussion here.

I'll start with a quote from "The Art of Shaolin Kungfu":

While Iron Fist was a formidable asset in the past, in my opinion its great destructive properties limit its practical usefulness in today's more settled times. Indeed, when one is likely to break bones or even kill someone with one punch, Iron Fist becomes a liability instead of an asset. The long training time needed to develop it would be better spent on other Shaolin arts....

I recently relearned this lesson through direct experience. A few months ago, I hung a small sandbag in my apartment, mostly for fun. After a few weeks of punching the bag with various hand forms using light force, I realized that the fist was my preferred weapon when using the hands.

Since I know the methods for Iron Fist, including the internal aspects, I decided to do a little experiment. Iron Fist is relatively "external" for Shaolin Kungfu, but compared to other methods, like punching a Makiwara board in Karate, it is still very internal.

I know from my Karate days that pounding a Makiwara (a long board imbedded halfway in the ground) hundreds of times a day can develop powerful punches and hardened knuckles. I also know that this practice can deform the hand, enlarging the index and middle knuckles, sometimes even fusing them into a single, solid mass. As a violinist, I did not want to risk damaging my hands.

I rubbed my hands with Dit Da Jow (a medicinal wine) before and after practicing Iron Fist. I also used Lifting the Sky as a remedial exercise to clear away any blockages. In practicing Iron Fist itself, I focused on the internal aspects like channeling force through the "5 obstacles" (dantian, shoulder, elbow, wrist, fist).

After about a month of daily practice, the effects were already obvious. I could feel energy consolidating in my fists. It was enough of a taste for me to imagine ahead a year or two. I'm quite sure that one or two years of Iron Fist training would give me lethal or at least devastatingly powerful fists.

I must admit that this kind of power is tempting. Not that tempting, though. I got over it. I soon realized that I was being silly. Power is readily available these days and can be purchased in the shape of a tazer, a knife, or a gun. It's also available in more wholesome packages.

After my month long experiment with Iron Fist training, I appreciate Sifu's wisdom so much more. He is so right. My time is better spent on other arts. There really is no comparison.

Iron Fist training itself, if done properly, is not bad for the health. On the other hand, it isn't particularly good for the health either. Cosmos Palm will increase my health and vitality dramatically. Cosmos Palm can be used for a palm, or a fist, or any hand form, or for running up a flight of stairs. Iron Fist can only be used for a fist. Cosmos Palm can be used to transmit energy to open vital points on others. Iron Fist can only harm. Cosmos Palm can be turned off when sparring with classmates. Iron Fist cannot. Cosmos Palm is a compassionate weapon. Iron Fist is not.

So there you have it folks, the story of my experiment with Iron Fist.

[Andrew]

Nice post Anthony!

But what is there to discuss?

Oh ... and I'm very pleased you stopped the Iron Fist training -particularly in view of the upcoming sparring

[Darryl]

OK, I'll bite on this one.


There must be a good reason for Iron Fist, otherwise it would never have become as widespread as it did. Granted, it may well not be neccessary from a practical view, but then again, when's the last time any of us actually fought anyone with a sword or a staff, let alone the myriad of more exotic weaponry! If the defence of associated skills is used, then iron Arm is also eligible for the same reasons.

Using the 'liability' arguement, then surely Iron Head would be more usefull than Iron Arm?

And yes, this is a rather half hearted debate since I agree anyway.

[Ronan]

It's my understanding that arts like iron palm (or fist) produce faster results than cosmos palm or some of the more "internal" arts, but that at a later stage (if one has practised and learnt Iron Palm from an internal master) it can go from external to internal.

Maybe thats why it was practised in the old days. For those who were lucky enough to have a Master who was both "Internal" and "External", their training in Iron Palm could eventually lead to a more advanced art like Cosmos Palm. For those who weren't as fortunate, they still had an Iron Palm!

[Antonius]

Darryl, Remember that the various force-training methods have never been as widely available as today. I'm no one in the world of martial arts, but I know the methods for: One Finger Zen, Golden Bridge, Iron Fist, Iron Palm, Cosmos Palm, Iron Arm, Iron Shirt, and Tiger Claw! Historically speaking, this is unprecedented. Even great masters did not know so many methods in the past.

It is no surprise to me that Iron Fist was widespread. The methods are comparatively simple and do not require a high level of qigong. The results are obvious and can be felt in a comparatively short time. Furthermore, fist techniques are more common than other techniques. If you knew 45 fist techniques and 3 palm techniques, it would be foolish to learn Iron Palm (assuming you had the choice).

The comparison to weaponry is a good one. Back in the days when everyone was carrying weapons, the hands were a last resort. Iron Fist offered a way to turn the hand into a powerful weapon -- one that cannot be detected, or dropped, or taken away. It seems an obvious asset to me.

We are lucky. These days, we can pick and choose our arts. It's like shopping in a Shaolin Arts supermarket. Where is the Iron Fist? Oh, Look honey. Cosmos Palm is on sale this week!

Furthermore, we are not bound by the same time constraints. I don't mind if it takes me 10 years to develop Cosmos Palm. I'm in no rush, especially if the training itself is wholesome. In the past, time was an important factor. If you needed to protect yourself from bandits today, the idea of a 10-year course in Cosmos Palm might not be very appealing. A 1-3 year course in Iron Fist would be a better choice.

[Tom L]

"It's like shopping in a Shaolin Arts supermarket. Where is the Iron Fist? Oh, Look honey. Cosmos Palm is on sale this week!" LOL


I want to do kung fu!!

[cnholmes]

I don't agree that choice is a lucky thing for beginners.

Between all the different martial arts available and all the styles within those martial arts and all the different clubs and masters (both real and pretending) and all the different approaches and skills within the clubs within styles within arts. Sometimes its a bewildering maze for someone who has all these options but not the knowledge of which is the best to follow.

You could say to them:

"traditional kung-fu is best"

but your voice would join all the others saying

"wu shu is best"
"judo is best"
"wing chung is best"
"aikido is best"
"tai chi is best"
"tae kwondo is best"
"custard pie fighting is best" (who let him in?)

- I think this would go for different skills within arts too, but I can't think of enough of them to put the point across as I did above.

Personally, I prefer to practice the skills and arts my Sifu tells me too, and maybe some day I'll be in a position to decide for myself, or maybe not.

I do believe that we are lucky to have the opportunity to learn, which we might not have had at other times.

Regards,
Chris.

Ya wanted discussion - ya got it!

[Quatro Bajina]

cnholmes:

You raise an excellent point.

When I first decide to study kungfu, I actually got into Stupid Wushu!!! Luckily, my teacher told me the difference. I then switch to kungfu. This is not actually kungfu because its San Da (Chinese Kickboxing). I got into it for about 1 year and was really bad at it. I then spar with my teacher who used techniques that I have never seen before. I asked him what it is and he told me about traditional kungfu. He then started to teach me Hsing- I which I still learn.

In short: it's a jungle out there.

Antonius:

Which art that is on sale next week? Do you give quantity discount? ^_^

LOL

[Antonius]

Ya wanted discussion - ya got it!

Yee-haw!

I don't agree that choice is a lucky thing for beginners.

The world of martial arts is a confusing one. When searching for a master, beginners can have a hard time discerning real from false. It's not easy to sift through the many options. As Franciskus said, it's a jungle out there.

These two links offer excellent tools -- a machete, if you will, to cut through the jungle:

http://www.wahnam.com/Taijiquan/bestbenefits.htm

http://www.wahnam.com/Wahnam/qualities.htm

But I don't know what you guys are complaining about! You're not in that situation any more. You're here! You've already made it through most of the crap. Whether you (Chris) are studying with one of Sifu's inner chamber disciples or have recently (Tom) taken a course with Sifu or are looking to join the Wahnam family (Franciskus), you're all very lucky. Most people are not fortunate enough to have the options you do.

I searched for many years before I found Sifu. Back then, we didn't have a forum. I didn't know anyone else who knew Sifu. All I had was "The Art of Shaolin Kungfu", and I found that by sheer luck (was it?).

Which art that is on sale next week? Do you give quantity discount?

The best bargains for beginners are: Lifting the Sky, Pushing Mountains, One Finger Zen, and Golden Bridge. These are incredible red-tag specials, folks. You can't find a better deal anywhere.

It is simply amazing that the Wahnam Institute offers all of these arts to beginners -- including the relevant once-guarded secrets which might not have been taught to a master's wife! The results of these arts, if practiced correctly and diligently, are simply astounding. Understandably, many people think that it is too good to be true, but it isn't. These arts are real, and they are rare (in genuine form), and we have them, and we share them.

Getting back to the thread, I would like to point out that all of these arts are much more beneficial and potentially far more powerful than Iron Fist.

[J.J.Binks]

Amen Brother

"wu shu is best"
"judo is best"
"wing chung is best"
"aikido is best"
"tai chi is best"
"tae kwondo is best"
"custard pie fighting is best" (who let him in?)
Everyone says this...especially at my own school, I am getting really sick of hearing it, especially when it comes from cats who cannot defend themselves from Pee Wee Herman. I always say "Don't tell me you're the best...show me."
BTW, as long as we are selling these things, can I return like 90% of my training? I'll gladly take the 80$ per month back and that ninja master can have back the pajamas and sparring gear (in case he ever learns how to fight).

[Antonius]

Hi J.J. Welcome to the forum.

You're only 21! Don't return any of your training. Learn from it. It sounds like you have already learned some good lessons about discerning real from false. These lessons may serve you well down the road.

[Quatro Bajina]

J.J.Binks:

you are right. I wished I can get a refund from all those so called "masters" that cheated me from my money.

I don't remember how much that I wasted on learning garbage before I study Hsing-I...

[Antonius]

Maybe now y'all are starting to realize just how valuable those links are? They are so valuable, I'll post them again (from Sifu's homepage this time):

http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/general/benefits.html

http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/general/qualities.html

If I had read and understood these articles at the beginning of my martial arts career, the path would have been much, much clearer. I can't complain, though. What is a decade or two in the grand scheme of things? The fact that I found a genuine master is much, much more important than when I found him.

Even if I had found Sifu before I started Karate at age 19, I might have complained: "I wish I had started when I was 12!!!" We do not live in an ideal world. The days of starting your training at age 12 at the Shaolin Temple are long gone. I'm almost 31, but I feel so lucky that I wonder what I did in a past life to deserve it.

[cnholmes]

Woah! Guys, lets not dwell on the good or bad of past endeavors. Different Arts have different benefits. Just enjoy the Art you practice now.

By the way, I did not mean to disparage any of those arts or any of the training in those arts. I have had a mixture of good and bad training in some and no experience of others. Inclusion on that list was random (except for the Pie Fighting, which was my get-out from taking anything too seriously ).

I had two points to make:

1. Its most likely the master of any particular art will promote their art above others. You expect them to think it the best art, or you wonder why they don't change, and wonder how they expect you to put time and effort into the art if they don't believe in it themselves. That goes no matter how popular or obscure the art may seem.

2. The Luck comes in finding good guidance both in which art to practice and in how to learn and practice correctly. Anthony's right in that we've found that guidance. Guidance generously given for students of The Shaolin Wahnam Institute as well as for those outside it.

So what I was getting at was that until you understand enough to know good advice from bad, its difficult to discern the two. Antonius' made the point
"If I had read and understood these articles at the beginning of my martial arts career, the path would have been much, much clearer."

There is the 'read' bit i.e. you encounter the knowledge - in that I don't agree you were lucky. You must have been looking for that kind of thing and you must have been looking at Sigung's site, and you must have had the wisdom to realise its worth to read it. No luck there. Lucky that Sigung posted it, of course

There is the 'understand' bit. You can read it, understand the words, but at what point do you have the knowledge to realise its worth and apply it? I have to admit its difficult to see how anyone would fail to see the worth of Sigung's words, but I think that there is a lot comes down to the maturity of the reader. Knowing good advice when you see it and knowing how to apply advice.

I think the most useful judge I learned from Sigung from this for me is to look at the advanced students of the class. Are they and the Master good examples of what they teach? I also think "Is this the type of person I really want to become?"

I also like the "don't tell me, show me" way of doing things mentioned here.

Regards,
Chris.

[kungfu-photo]

Power is readily available these days and can be purchased in the shape of a tazer, a knife, or a gun. It's also available in more wholesome packages.

Are just training kung fu to have a flowery fist and brocade kicks? If you have no faith in your cosmos palm to defend yourself maybe you should start hitting your sandbag again...

Iron Fist training itself, if done properly, is not bad for the health. On the other hand, it isn't particularly good for the health either. Cosmos Palm will increase my health and vitality dramatically. Cosmos Palm can be used for a palm, or a fist, or any hand form, or for running up a flight of stairs. Iron Fist can only be used for a fist. Cosmos Palm can be used to transmit energy to open vital points on others. Iron Fist can only harm. Cosmos Palm can be turned off when sparring with classmates. Iron Fist cannot. Cosmos Palm is a compassionate weapon. Iron Fist is not.

FALSE!!! I am sorry to inform you about your misconceptions but Iron Palm can do everything cosmos palm can do: boost health and vitality, transmit energy to open vital points for healing (if qi gong is used properly). With an added benefit it can be used to destroy your enemy(s). However I now spar with my fists as I cannot hit with an open palm; true it cannot be turned off but if my intent is to tap/check and not harm there is no problem(s). If you want to meditate to enlightenment while playing the violin have at it. If someone jumps you and your family on the street or breaks into your house you better hope the words spoken by your Master in his books/question and answer forum will save your life and those you love.