Becoming Spiritually Mature

[joko]

T

Thus God helping us is natural. It just happens as a matter of course.


Alex

... that is if you permit it to happen.

Regards,
Joko

[AlexBaranosky]

Hello Joko,

I would rather say... it happens unless you DON'T permit it. A slight variation of what you stated in your post.

And not permitting the goodness that God has for you, causes a constant effort. Since it requires effort, it ultimately fails, because everything always returns to what is natural.

From what I understand from my experience, God is natural. Goodness is natural. And what is unnatural doesn't ever last.

It is like gravity or hunger, you can't fight either for long, because they are part of the natural order.

All the Best,
Alex

[joko]

Good.

[AlexBaranosky]

Exactly Very good.

All the Best to all of you and a happy New Year

[Guest]

Hi Alex,

It can never be enough because evil can never last enduringly, because evil is not the nature of humans and not the nature of the world we live in.

You’re right – evil can’t last enduringly. However, it can last for an exceptionally long time. It’s not the nature of humans, but humans always have free will. Thus, literally, evil can last for eons, because God is merciful and gives people time to turn around. But sometimes the best way to reach a person and to help them turn around is to actively be God’s hands and feet on Earth. I don’t subscribe to the idea that, because the arc of the moral universe bends towards good, that we can just sit back and let God eradicate evil. God has to act through someone, and it’s a great joy to be the ‘open door’ for God to act through you in the world. God is the Doer through you.

That’s how I see a Bodhisattva. If God could sort out this universe fine without us helping Him, why would they choose to come back into embodiment to serve God’s purposes more and more?

It’s not that God’s Will won’t prevail in the long term. But if a group of people consistently reject God (and people can reject God for an exceptionally long time), then it is the job of people who love God to try to reach them and show them the folly of their ways – if necessary, rebuke them. That, for me, is love, because it seeks to free the God in another from their delusions and illusions (maya). I think that, were it not for the efforts of good people throughout history on planet Earth, we would not have ground to walk on, and we would be incarnating elsewhere.

Evil is something to be avoided. But not something to be feared, or something to give undue respect to.

True, although, just as it takes one person in God to do great works, it also takes one person in evil to do horrendous works, one person in evil to take down someone who is of God.

In fact evil is part of the growth process. Through exploring what doesn't work for us we choose that which does work for us.

Why should evil be part of the growth process? I think that the ultimate growth process is God and God’s Will. If He leads you to experience or indulge in evil to help you learn, that’s different from swaying from good to evil and trying to find out what works. I mean, for many people they settle on evil because they find that it ‘works’ best for them, and they stick with it lifetime after lifetime. Yet evil doesn’t have to be a part of this world. If you want an education in God, why would you need an education in what isn’t of God?

The God I refer to is a spiritual principle, not a religious God. Just for clarification. None of my comments come from reading the Bible, instead they come from my own life experience. [Though I have nothing against the Bible ]

The God I refer to is neither a spiritual principle, nor a religious God. The God I refer to is … God. I use quotes from the Bible because the Bible is the religious document I’m most familiar with; if I were as familiar with the Upanishads, Koran, sutras, or Tao Te Ching, then I would look to them as well. My comments don’t come from reading the Bible, they come from my Heart, and are corroborated by religious texts such as the Bible.

And my comments in this thread are indeed based on my own life experiences. I went through a period of thinking that there wasn’t a need to ask God for help, because it’s natural for us to be open to his blessings, and I have to tell you it caused a lot of pain. The reason is because many people, myself included, have unconsciously NOT permitted God to work in our lives. Many people – myself included – have unconscious blocks to God working in our lives. The blockages we clear in chi kung are a prime example. God helping us is natural, but it is not a matter of course, because many people actually don’t want to be helped by God, and have various impure motivations and intents when they come to God. It cannot be expected that they could just sit back, relax, and let God help them, without them seeking to purify themselves. It’s surrender to God, and making the conscious choice to do so. And this applies to the Earth too. We can’t just expect God to help us, without seeking to be His hands and feet on the Earth, without seeking to help him in our lives. The universe does bend towards God, but because everything depends on free will, we have to inspire those around us to drop their blocks to God and open themselves to His blessings.

As Sifu Anthony on his Facebook page put:

“Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” –Rumi

Hi Stephen,

These dictators, like 99% of the world, were driven by ego. It is my strong belief that they all possessed powerful but misdirected and distorted spiritual energy. As an example, Hitler was known to have befriended Tibetan monks in order to learn more about these occult powers.

Yes, Hitler was fascinated by the occult and black magic.

Could this energy they seemed to have possessed be called God? Certainly. God is neither evil nor good on a universal level.

That energy went against everything God stands for! I’m not sure what ‘energy’ they used, but when they used it as they did, it can’t be said to be of God. It was energy, yes, but it was dark energy, nothing like the energy I would expect to find from any saint or God-realised man or woman. Take any saint, from any religion, at any point throughout history, and you will see that they strove to promote good in the world, not neutrality, not ‘neither evil nor good’. Take beloved Kwan Yin as an example. She is the Goddess of Mercy and Compassion, not the Goddess of Neutrality. Everything I’ve experienced of God tells me that He is good, not neutral, and that God wants to help me, you and everybody else on this planet come closer to Him.

Spiritual laws state that events happen because of karma ripening.

The world isn’t some grand cosmic table where everything happens because of karma. Karma comes upon people, certainly – but they always have a choice as how to respond to it. I believe that these dictators were probably influenced by their karma, blinded by their pride, and then made the choice to go down the path they took. And thank goodness that there were those that, by their strivings and efforts, managed to contain these dictators.

In the grand scheme of things, there is God, and there is that which is opposed to God. There is light and darkness, good and evil. And you do have the choice to surrender to God and follow his Divine Direction, to allow God to work in and through you, and you have the choice to deny him.

[Kathryn]

Hi, I'm finding this discussion very interesting. God tells us in Scripture
" I an always with you, even unto the end of time." Whatever people do God will still love them and be willing to forgive them, and to quote from the Liturgy that I use in church, " God is love, and we are his children," So he is with us all of the time, through the good and the bad times. We have free will and can choose to give in to temptation or not.

I found a quote from the Dalai Lama which says " The measure of a man's spiritual evolution is his acceptance of the unacceptable."

Regards

Kathryn

[DarkCosmoz]

Hi James,

That energy went against everything God stands for! I’m not sure what ‘energy’ they used, but when they used it as they did, it can’t be said to be of God. It was energy, yes, but it was dark energy, nothing like the energy I would expect to find from any saint or God-realised man or woman. Take any saint, from any religion, at any point throughout history, and you will see that they strove to promote good in the world, not neutrality, not ‘neither evil nor good’. Take beloved Kwan Yin as an example. She is the Goddess of Mercy and Compassion, not the Goddess of Neutrality. Everything I’ve experienced of God tells me that He is good, not neutral, and that God wants to help me, you and everybody else on this planet come closer to Him.

I definitely agree that the World War II dictators used "dark" energy for destructive purposes. Powerful beings like Jesus, Buddha and Krishna would never have used such energy in that way.

I think our debate here is on the definition of "God." I am looking at God nondualistically... i.e. there is no evil nor good. You are presenting God (and rightfully so!) from only the good aspect. Using Kwan Yin as an example, she represents the good and merciful side of the Divine energy.

In my previous post, I used Hindu Goddess Mahakali (or just Kali) as an example. She appears dark and terrifying, with a necklace full of human skulls, blood dripping out of her fanged mouth, her many arms bearing weapons, etc. She was created out of divine rage in order to defeat the demons that were threatening the order of the Universe.

Her devout and spiritually advanced worshippers see her as a sweet and loving mother who liberates them from the painful cycle of rebirth.

Kali symbolizes our Kundalini energy without any "modifications" of any sort. I see Kuan Yin and other Bodhisattvas like her as a "modified" or toned down energy of the divine. Kali is pure and raw divine energy.

When Kali/Kundalini awakens to the spiritually unready body, the energy can overwhelm, be quite terrifying and cause illness as excess karma clears out. If the person is spiritually ready, the energy is quite pleasant and joyous.

However, Kali's ultimate divine energy have been used in black magic rites to kill, seduce, destroy, etc. These rites have, and probably still are used by Tantric masters.

Chi can be used to heal and transform, but it can also be used to disrupt an opponent's energy field.

[DarkCosmoz]

I found a quote from the Dalai Lama which says " The measure of a man's spiritual evolution is his acceptance of the unacceptable."

Thank you Kathyrn for this.

[AlexBaranosky]

We do not see the world as it is; we see it as we are.

How do you know that you are seeing the real world? How can you ever know if you have stripped away things so you can see the truth? You are always seeing the world through yourself. Actually your entire worldview is shaped by what your mind has perceived. Everything you think is real has been filtered first through your senses. Hence... We do not see the world as it is, but as we are!

[DarkCosmoz]

How do you know that you are seeing the real world? How can you ever know if you have stripped away things so you can see the truth? You are always seeing the world through yourself. Actually your entire worldview is shaped by what your mind has perceived. Everything you think is real has been filtered first through your senses. Hence... We do not see the world as it is, but as we are!

Our current beliefs and views on the world are what we wish the world to be like.

Food for thought

[Omar]

Our current beliefs and views on the world are what we wish the world to be like.

Much of what I see of the world today is definitely not what I would wish it to be.

Then I accept, and see the world, or rather the small part of it I perceive, as it is through my limited senses.

Though in some sense you are correct, it is a choice if we perceive something as good or bad. In my experience, neither good or bad exists. It's a matter of perception and choices.

Always think happy thoughts!

[MaxP]

Hi Everyone

It's a matter of perception and choices.

Always think happy thoughts!

Guess you've also been reading Sigung's latest teachings on perception and reality?

How are you by the way brother?

Best regards,

Max

Namo Amitabha Buddha, Namo Amitabha Buddha, Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Guest]

Hi Kathryn,

Hi, I'm finding this discussion very interesting. God tells us in Scripture
" I an always with you, even unto the end of time." Whatever people do God will still love them and be willing to forgive them, and to quote from the Liturgy that I use in church, " God is love, and we are his children," So he is with us all of the time, through the good and the bad times. We have free will and can choose to give in to temptation or not.

I found a quote from the Dalai Lama which says " The measure of a man's spiritual evolution is his acceptance of the unacceptable."

Regards

Kathryn

I’m glad you’re finding this interesting I am grateful to know this is helping someone!

However, I don’t understand the quote from the Dalai Lama. For example, I consider bad manners to be unacceptable. Besides, I don’t think that God, Enlightenment, or Tao is unacceptable. All it takes is a willing and sincere Heart, because that’s what makes a Heart pure. It’s so very easy to accept God and to walk with Him, if you are willing to bend the knee to His Divine Direction, if you are willing to open your heart to Him.

Of course, if you aren’t willing – because of fear, pride, or whatever – then God won’t break down the door. But it’ll cause you so much pain, because you’ll start making karma and because you won’t ever be able to fulfill your soul’s longings by indulging in the world.


Hi Stephen,

I think our debate here is on the definition of "God." I am looking at God nondualistically... i.e. there is no evil nor good. You are presenting God (and rightfully so!) from only the good aspect. Using Kwan Yin as an example, she represents the good and merciful side of the Divine energy.

Personally, I think that's quite a 'mental' analysis of what we're talking about here. I'm just sharing from my Heart. Although I do see your use of Kali as an example of ‘good God’. However, I have met quite a few people who talk about God as being non-dualistic, and there are two things that I have to say to that.

One, that there is very little that I can see, in my life or in religious scriptures, that show that God is non-dualistic, neither good nor evil; I also see no reason to say that God is non-dualistic. God is not just ‘energy’, God is Light. God is non-dualistic in the sense that He is Light and Light alone. That Light is given to us – it is chi, the kundalini, the life-force – but if and when we misqualify it with negative beliefs, thoughts, emotions, and words, its vibration becomes lowered and it’s not longer God’s Light. Instead it’s lower energy.

The other thing to consider is that God is not some conglomerate mass of energy that we need to dissolve our individuality into. God gave us our individuality as a way for Him to express His love for us and to become more. We are beautiful spiritual beings and our job is to Be the Christ everywhere we go. So I do not imagine Heaven or Enlightenment as the dissolving of my identity into a gigantic mass of energy called ‘God’. I imagine Heaven as a beautiful place, full of “saints robed in white”, where the beauty and splendor of their (and my) God-identity shines forth so clearly, who are spending their time in Heaven seeking to help their brethren on Earth. God created us as pure and beautiful beings – pure meaning ‘love of God’ – and wants us to multiply our talents, to multiply the Light and opportunities He has given us, to go into the world and bring God to that world.

Compared to that, a non-dualistic God is boring and dull. And it makes no sense.

I don’t subscribe to the idea that God is non-dualistic, neither good nor evil. God is Good and Light and has no evil or darkness in Him. And my witness to that fact are the saints and divine beings throughout the ages who show us what God is like – like Jesus, Shiva, and Buddha – and show us that God wants evil and darkness done away with. The idea that God is non-dualistic is a perfect way to stop people from taking a stand in the world and claiming their right to stand for God in daily life.

Two, people who subscribe to the idea that God is non-dualistic, I have observed, are generally unwilling to take a stand against evils going on right under their nose. Instead of being willing to face opposition, they retreat into their 'oneness with God' and allow other people to do what they like, because 'the most important thing is free will' and 'God doesn't really care what choices they make'. What they miss is that there IS such a thing as Truth – as in, Ultimate Truth. And there are laws to how the universe works - God's Laws. They exists irrespective of your perspective. It's not our job to change our mind's perception of reality - our job is to surrender, in our Hearts, to the reality that is God, out of love for God.


Hi Alex,

Actually your entire worldview is shaped by what your mind has perceived.

What role does the Heart play in this? I remember posting a quote in another topic that the true measure of spiritual attainment is not the opening of the third eye (in this case, this can be taken to mean the mind and how it perceives the world) but the opening of the Heart. I would actually go so far as to say that I wish my entire worldview to be shaped by my Heart’s connection to God.

The mind is useful but it’s a human tool, and only a human tool. I much prefer to rely on my Heart-to-Heart connection with God – Faith – than to rely on my mind and perfecting my mind’s perceptions.

It is good to think good thoughts, but ultimately that’s the mind, and God’s in the Heart. You can't think your way to God.

[joko]

Hi James,

In my opinion, in that quote, "his acceptance of the unacceptable" means his ability to accept other possibilities beyond his present way of thinking.

Regards,
Joko

[Irina]

Stephen,

We do not see the world as it is; we see it as we are.

--Anais Nin
Charles

How true... the world is a mirror and as a good mirror it reflects....

As good old Louis Armstrong sings: What a wonderful World!