Chi: An intersting enigma and an unfortunate mix of fact and charlatanism

[Kraythe]

I hope you will excuse my ramblings once again but I am sort of thinkign out loud about chi kung and I would enjoy some other people's opinions of my opinions.

I have been reading up a lot on Chi Kung as I am new to the Shaolin Kung Fu arts. I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand I can readily accept that there are lots of things about the human body that we dont understand and that there are lots of things in physics that we dont understand. On some level the "Force" of star wars very well might exist within the quantum states of the molecules in living beings. Furthermore, it has long been postulated that thought, an emergent phenomenon, is a kind of energy itself that might be able to manipulate other energy and even transmit on some level.

Take the scenario of a busy restaurant for example, If you look at a single person long enough, they will sense that and look you right in the eye. There are also such phenomenon as "feeling you are being watched." All of this tells us not very much except that we have a lot to learn. Can such sensation and indeed such matters of physics be controlled? Im willign to accept that is possible.

What I am not willing to accept are the "practitioners" of Chi Kung that claim that they can do fantastic things with their Chi such as lift trucks and so on. I am also not willing to accept that the touch of anyone can cure something so complicated as cancer in iteself. It might "help" the person's body, depleted of energy, ATP, fuel, and even willpower, but to cure with a touch is just out of my realm of suspension of disbelief. Nor do I accept some people that say that Chi can let them learn how to fly (just send us 49.95 plus shipping and handling.)

So I suppose my feelings about it are mixed. The doctors and skeptics that dismiss it out of hand as hokus pokus, tricks of deception and idiocy are displaying the height of scientific arrogance; namely they are saying "I KNOW it all and that doesnt exist." On the other hand Im not willing to accept that there is no way that Chi can be measured with mathematics and physics. Note that this is different than saying it doesnt exist. I will certainly believe we havent FOUND the way to measure it with physics just as we hadnt FOUND the way to measure space curvature before the late 20th century when we were able to fire a laser very close to venus and observe that the laser was actually bent.

I think Chi Kung gets the worst rap from charlatains that claim to be able to do all manner of things with it. A person need only see one or two of these people to write it off as hocus pokus BS.

Will Chi help me maintain my horse stances? Possibly. I could believe that one could control such an "energy field" (if it even is that and not some subatomic vibration inherent in carbon atoms that can be controlled by thoguht energy just for example). Could one control such a field, stimualte production of ATP in the cels of the muscles, dampen false signals of pain sent out by muscles unacustomed to exercise and direct more electrical energy to these muscles? Im willing to believe that. Could the techniques allow one to gain more control over the autonomic nervous system to facilitate increased oxygen flow and better immune response? I could believe that too. I cant, however, belive that its magical, mystical, cant be measured or studied. Tell me that we havent found the right way to study it and I will nod, but tell me it cant be studied and watch my eyes roll.

One thing is perfectly clear from my research into Chi Kung. It works for many people. In that light and to those people it probably doesnt matter why. However, it is also silly and unscientific for western medical practitionsers to dismiss it as placebo effect. There is certainly some biomechanical process going on here and just because we cant explain it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. We still cant explain thought and yet there would scarcely be a medical practioner that claims it doesnt exist. There are people that have used it to improve their health and their life and for these people, it is real and working. That enough might be worth a try if you are sick, injured or just wish to feel better.

I suppose as long as someone doesnt try to palm off "take it on faith" to my agnostic mind, I am willing to accept the possibility of its existence and eagerly look forward to the day when it is explained.

This being said, the Chi Kung masters need to take it slow and easy. It could be that Chi can do all the things they say but if you blast the western mind with that all at once, they will likely recede out of pure reflex. In addition, these masters REALLY need to get ahold of these charlatains that are making thier job much harder. Education is the key. But a little at a time. Telling an audience of western people that the exercise helps oxygenate their blood (which is perhaps only one effect) will go down a lot better than attempting to shove the whole plate in their mouth at once.

But whatever you do, dont try to tell me I have to BELIEVE in it for it to work. If it truly does exist and it is truly a force of nature than my belief in it should be irrelevant.

[Antonius]

This being said, the Chi Kung masters need to take it slow and easy.

When it comes to a real master (I'm not talking about charlatans), the above attitude simply will not help you. A student cannot set out demands for the master. You are trying to set demands before even being accepted as a student.

As for your research into chi kung, it may provide some interesting mental stimulation, but the best research in this art is direct experience. Even when scientists learn how to measure qi, their measurements won't give you any of the benefits of practicing qigong. All they will do is ease your intellectual mind, which you could have done more effectively by practicing chi kung.

Until we learn how to measure qi, I can think of only two ways for skeptics to be convinced. One, through the direct experience of developing their own chi and internal force. This is the path we offer in Shaolin Wahnam. Or two, find a master who can demonstrate an incontrovertible technique. Our Sigung Ho, for example, could drop you to your knees gasping for breath with the gentle touch of one finger.

But there remains a conundrum with the second option. These masters save their demonstrations for only their most dedicated students.

However, the science-minded may benefit from the scientific articles I have on my website: http://www.zenergyarts.com/science.htm

[Antonius]

If it truly does exist and it is truly a force of nature than my belief in it should be irrelevant.

One additional thing. We in Shaolin Wahnam never advise students to take things on faith alone. We advise students to practice exactly as taught for a resonable period of time and then decide for themselves. We do not ask students to go on faith for 3 years. In most cases, Sifu Wong's students are able to experience chi in a matter of hours. My own students experience chi within a few lessons. This is quite remarkable, and represents an intentional break from tradition.

But "mind" is essential in chi kung. It is the key. In this regard, you must "believe" in something -- the master. If not, then you cannot and should not be learning from him or her. If you don't have faith in his or her teachings, then you won't follow them correctly. And if you don't follow the teachings correctly, then you won't experience chi.

Another conundrum.

[parrapiti]

Measurable vs. Real

This is the essence of a Discussion Forum. To ask for opinions about one's own opinions and recieve input from wise sources as you did from Sifu Anthony Korahais! I can only agree with him in every aspect!

Chi is definitely measurable in many "scientific" ways. If you read Dr Yves Requena's books about this topic (Chi Kung, Chi flow,...) I think you also will notice his passion for the correct ways to measure Chi. That might help your rational side in your search for the "truth".

In my experience with Wahnam Shaolin Chi Kung I have enjoyed moving from my rational perspective to a more integral one: Chi is not only scientifically measurable so my rational "mind" can be in peace, but it is also percievable through all the senses of my "body" so the physical aspect of mine can enjoy its benefits; it generates a multidimensional mix of emotions and feelings so that my "heart" can feel alive and connected, and fills my "soul" with intuitive energy so that I can once again live every instant of my life with passion and vitality. It is fresh nourishment for my mind, body, heart and soul. It connects me with the rest of the Universe to make me feel freedom and integrality at the same time. I don't need to measure it to know that it is very real. But then again, I am not a Chi Kung scholar, I am just a practitioner...

Piti Parra Duque

[Andrew]

But whatever you do, dont try to tell me I have to BELIEVE in it for it to work. If it truly does exist and it is truly a force of nature than my belief in it should be irrelevant.

I must also concur with Anthony and Piti. What I would add here is a small comment on the above quote. You do not need to believe in Chi to experience it. What you need, however, is at least an open mind to be able to benefit from a Master's teachings.

As most here know, the mind is so much more powerful than most can imagine. By closing it completely to the possibility that Chi may exist and Chi Kung can work for you, you are effectively "pulling the plug" on yourself.

Andrew

[PhilH]

Around 10 years ago I injured my knee, and went to a Chinese doctor for treatment. He said I could help the injury heal by holding my hands above the knee, and letting chi flow into it. I thought he was mad, but tried. To my amazement, at about the 3rd attempt I was aware of energy flowing from my hands, and I actually felt it entering my knee. I was astounded. I didn't believe it was possible, but as Andrew suggests, I kept an open mind, and experienced chi flow.

[Kraythe]

When it comes to a real master (I'm not talking about charlatans), the above attitude simply will not help you. A student cannot set out demands for the master. You are trying to set demands before even being accepted as a student.

Actually Im not setting demands for anything. I was referring to having the public at large accept the concept of Chi, not a student. Obviously a student has to have some belief in the concept if they are willing to participate in the class. However, a Chi kung master that stands up on David Letterman show purporting to be able to do fantastic things with his Chi will merely be laughed at (regardless of whether his claims are true or not). If he refuses to demonstrate on Letterman himself or some random audience member, the laughter will grow. That same chi kung master advocating it as a relaxation technique and technique to stimulate oxygen flow to the organs will likely be listened to with interest by the audience. This is what I was referring to: the general public and medical acceptance of Chi Kung would be much better served by going in pieces, small chunks that the community could digest at once.

As for your research into chi kung, it may provide some interesting mental stimulation, but the best research in this art is direct experience.

Mental stimulation is important as is the ability to have a rational understanding of something. Otherwise a scientist such as myself would always be at two minds over the subject and such conflict would likely hinder my progress in Chi Kung and even associated martial arts. You cant simply dismiss the need for rational explanation as unreasonable. That is clearly as eroneous as a western scientist completely dismissing the practice of Chi Kung out of hand. There is a middleground that must be achieved if Chi Kung is to be generally accepted and not merely laughed at.

For example, one doctor might ascribe chi kung to the placebo effect and then you could counter with "ok, so what causes the placebo effect. What causes people to get better even though they have not ingested drug treatments?" Obviously the doctor would have to think about that one and might come to the conclusion that they dont really know. And that is the doorway to understanding; not merely saying "bah, if you dont train it then you cant possibly understand it."

Even when scientists learn how to measure qi, their measurements won't give you any of the benefits of practicing qigong.

I wouldnt assert that it would. The question here is a scientific understanding of it, not deriving benefit from it.

All they will do is ease your intellectual mind, which you could have done more effectively by practicing chi kung.

Perhaps your mind might be satisfied more by practicing Chi Kung but my mind likes to know why. Its prepared to accept that there are things that we dont understand but its not willing to believe in magic. There are many kinds of intellectual minds and I would put it to you that the pursuit of scientific explanation of Chi Kung is at least as useful as the pursuit of a spiritual explanation. Both seek understanding.

Until we learn how to measure qi, I can think of only two ways for skeptics to be convinced. One, through the direct experience of developing their own chi and internal force. This is the path we offer in Shaolin Wahnam. Or two, find a master who can demonstrate an incontrovertible technique.

You wont find skeptics willing to do that. And if you tell people that they have to experience it to believe it then they will look at the cost of your classes and assume (wrongly for sure) that you are merely trying to cash in on a superstition. Armed with such mental blocks and barriers its unlikely they could accomplish anything. Could one learn to write if one truly believed writing was impossible? I doubt it. You might explain that as them building up negative chi and you might even be right but a self reinforcing philosophy will just make them more skeptical: just like those that tell me I have to believe in the christian god to be saved and experience his love and that I wont understand til I believe.

I dont think you can just change people's mind. You cant put them in a chi kung class and expect them to go from skeptic to convinced. You have to do it slowly and in steps and you have to have evidince supporting the phenomenon from people outside its practice.

Our Sigung Ho, for example, could drop you to your knees gasping for breath with the gentle touch of one finger.

I would have to see and experience such a thing first hand to believe it. I would have to be the student dropped to the floor gasping. I think there is a possibility and even a likelyhood that Chi exists but such fantastic claims are hard for my admitedly western mind to digest without rational and impartial evidence.

But there remains a conundrum with the second option. These masters save their demonstrations for only their most dedicated students.

This furthermore reinforces the skeptics. I would think that Sifu Wong would have much more luck if he were to hold a seminar on stress management and practice chi kung at such a course. He would likely get many people intested. Once interested and once these people feel the stress releif promised then he could progress to more "advanced issues". Issues of Chi Kung specifically, which was what the seminar was practicing all the time anyway.

If you wish to feed a baby you dont hold their mouth open and shove the jar down their throat. You feed them little spoons of tasty ingredients, tempting them to try more and more until they suddenly realize that they like it.

But also claims need such evidence as is purportion to their perception of being fantastic. The more fantastic the claim, the more fantastic evidence is needed. Even doing this in a seminar would be seen by many as staged. You would have to privide the skeptics FIRST HAND experience or unimpeachable, impartial evidence.

However, the science-minded may benefit from the scientific articles I have on my website: http://www.zenergyarts.com/science.htm

I shall give them a read. At any rate this is an interesting discussion; even though its "merely" an intellectual one.

[George]

You wont find skeptics willing to do that. And if you tell people that they have to experience it to believe it then they will look at the cost of your classes and assume (wrongly for sure) that you are merely trying to cash in on a superstition. Armed with such mental blocks and barriers its unlikely they could accomplish anything. Could one learn to write if one truly believed writing was impossible? I doubt it. You might explain that as them building up negative chi and you might even be right but a self reinforcing philosophy will just make them more skeptical: just like those that tell me I have to believe in the christian god to be saved and experience his love and that I wont understand til I believe.

I dont think you can just change people's mind. You cant put them in a chi kung class and expect them to go from skeptic to convinced. You have to do it slowly and in steps and you have to have evidince supporting the phenomenon from people outside its practice.

At the risk of sounding cheesy, a master can only show the student where the door is. It is up to the student to walk through it. If you look at it like that then a die-hard sceptic is not ready. Maybe in the next life... In the mean time there are lots of people who are not hampered by scepticism.

I would think that Sifu Wong would have much more luck if he were to hold a seminar on stress management and practice chi kung at such a course. He would likely get many people intested. Once interested and once these people feel the stress releif promised then he could progress to more "advanced issues". Issues of Chi Kung specifically, which was what the seminar was practicing all the time anyway.

Obviously I can't speak for Sifu Wong, but in my mind he is a Shaolin Grandmaster. He is not a "stress management" consultant (the suggestion feels a bit offensive actually.)

One of the stated goals of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute is to preserve the Shaolin Arts from being watered down beyond the point of recovery. I feel your suggestion would interfere with that, as it in itself would water the art down.

If you wish to feed a baby you dont hold their mouth open and shove the jar down their throat. You feed them little spoons of tasty ingredients, tempting them to try more and more until they suddenly realize that they like it.

I have yet to see spoon-feeding stated as one of the Wahnam objectives (unless it is for your own children.)

[Kraythe]

George, I feel obliged to say that you are entitled to your own opinion and I respect your opinion though I dont agree with you.

Obviously I can't speak for Sifu Wong, but in my mind he is a Shaolin Grandmaster. He is not a "stress management" consultant (the suggestion feels a bit offensive actually.)

Well, I didnt say that he was. I said that it would be a good technique to bring people into chi kung without stimulating their disbelief reflex. If you arent interested in converting anyone but the believers then you can just forget about it. Certainly Chi Kung has stress management effects and introducing the art in that manner is not deceptive in my opinion. Sifu Wong doesnt have to do anything he doesnt wish to do of course but I dont see any dishonor in trying to help people with stress problems into the world of Chi Kung via a door they already believe in. In fact, I would see that as a true teacher. I personally dont think a teacher can "teach" by saying, "it works because i said it does" but rather by saying "let me show how it can work for you" with the followup of, "Youve just scratched the surface of Chi Kung.

One of the stated goals of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute is to preserve the Shaolin Arts from being watered down beyond the point of recovery. I feel your suggestion would interfere with that, as it in itself would water the art down.

Why is that? What is the difference between teaching "lifting the sky" to a believer in internal energy and to a non believer that believes its a healthy way to reduce stress and oxygenate the blood? The exercise is the same, the motivation is merely tailored to the student. What would water down the arts here?

I have yet to see spoon-feeding stated as one of the Wahnam objectives (unless it is for your own children.)

Find someone random in your life (someone who wont have you arrested ) and drop your head and shoulders and charge into them with a battle cry that could wake the dead. Note how they brace themselves against the onslaught. Take that same person for a walk and gently put your hand on their shoulder while talking and exert gentle pressure on them to move right and note how they will practically let themselves be pushed into a street.

Trying to force knowledge or acceptance into people doesnt work. Gentle pressure does. Anyone with children knows you get a lot more from rewards and gentle pressure than you do with a spanking.

If your goal is to convince the western mind then gentle pressure will be a lot more effective. If you dont care about convincing the western mind then the thread in its entirety is academic to you.

[George]

I personally dont think a teacher can "teach" by saying, "it works because i said it does" but rather by saying "let me show how it can work for you" with the followup of, "Youve just scratched the surface of Chi Kung.

Perhaps some direct experience of the Wahnam teaching method might be useful, because it does not sound like you have any (otherwise you would not need to suggest this - it is already there.) I feel in a stronger position to disagree with your opinions (which you are of course entitled to as well ) because I do speak from such experience.

Why is that? What is the difference between teaching "lifting the sky" to a believer in internal energy and to a non believer that believes its a healthy way to reduce stress and oxygenate the blood? The exercise is the same, the motivation is merely tailored to the student. What would water down the arts here?

Because if you are learning Chi Kung, you should be learning Chi Kung. It is insulting to suggest that this great art has to be sneaked in by the backdoor somehow. There are plenty of other options available for those who want to "reduce stress and oxygenate the blood". I see lots of adverts for that on my way to work and back.

If your goal is to convince the western mind then gentle pressure will be a lot more effective. If you dont care about convincing the western mind then the thread in its entirety is academic to you.

My "Western mind" managed fine without. I have a feeling the same could be said for at least a few other Wahnam students.

[Jordan_LM]

Robert,

Welcome to the forum.

Some big posts here and I'd like to comment more, but i'm at work so need to be quick.

All they will do is ease your intellectual mind, which you could have done more effectively by practicing chi kung.

Mental stimulation is important as is the ability to have a rational understanding of something. Otherwise a scientist such as myself would always be at two minds over the subject and such conflict would likely hinder my progress in Chi Kung and even associated martial arts.

Anthony Siheng didn't say that mental stimulation and rational understanding isn't important. He said that practicing Chi Kung would ease your interllectual mind more effectively that researching into it.

There is a big difference. For what its worth, my (limited) experience comfirms this comment.

regards,
Jordan 2.

[Kraythe]

George and Jordan:

Belief in something to the point that it cant be questioned is the single most dangerous thing in human history. It has caused most if not all of our wars, countless deaths of thousands due to religious violence and the spread of Cults like David Koresh's "Branch Dividians." If you can not question the art then it is simply too dangerous.

Telling someone that they should just take the master at their word and not question it is something that I am ethically allergic to. If that means I cant train Shaolin Wahnam or Chi Kung then so be it. Blindly following anyone, master or otherwise, is not how I work.

[Piers]

Speaking as someone who believes in chi, has experienced it, and has been taught by Sifu Wong, I must say that I don't think we need to react at all negatively to what Kraythe is saying. I too have a need to incorporate the existence of chi into my understanding of how the universe works, and that requires a kind of intellectual framework for it. It is not just some kind of distraction from the actual practice and experience of chi, although of course it is no subsitute for it.

This broad topic of 'proof' often comes up in this forum and what is usually said is that there is no obligation on a master to prove his art. I completely agree - there is no need for Sifu to prove anything to anyone.

But on the other hand if chi exists (which I know it does) then it is dissatisfying and irritating to live surrounded by a dominant western worldview where its existence is denied. It's not up to a chi master who is busy preserving a great art to attempt to prove its existence, it's up to scientific researchers with open minds to devise experiments that can demonstrate chi's existence.

The thing is, there are such huge vested interests (included huge emotional investment) in perpetuating a model of the universe that is without purpose, without higher meaning, where consciousness is just a byproduct of brain functioning, where life evolved completely by chance, etc etc, that it is a huge drain on energy and resources to try and challenge it. This happens in medicine, in biology, in many areas of intellectual interest. It is very very difficult to even get funding, then to get results published, if you are contradicting the dominant paradigm. And the paradigm won't change just because there are some published results which appear to demonstrate the existence of chi.

In other words the hardline 'sceptics' aren't waiting to be convinced - they are already convinced of what they believe.

And I'm not sure taking the little at at time route necessarily works - it's kind of what's happened with acupuncture, and the dominant western understanding of that is something to do with stimulating endorphins. So they accept that acupuncture is a treatment that works, but it requires no change to the scientific paradigm.

I don't think it's up to chi masters to do anything to try and change that dominant paradigm, although it's great when they can collaborate with genuinely open-minded researchers, but it's up to the researchers to seek them out. The paradigm will change anyway as it becomes increasingly threadbare and contradictory.

Kraythe, have you read the Conscious Universe by Dean Radin? That provides a great deal of careful, scientific, statistical evidence for effects such as 'telepathy', precognition, and so on - but it hasn't changed the dominant paradigm. However, the evidence is there - the mind does things that the brain shouldn't be able to do. Same with chi. Trouble is, the basic scientific model is incomplete (must be), and so chi (and telepathy) actually can't be understood within it. There is no model of the mind that can help - yet.

[Andrew]

A lively discussion indeed .

I know where Robert is coming from as I also stem from a scientific background. As an electronic engineer, I was probably amongst the biggest skeptics regarding Chi and Chi Kung.

What I did was quite simple. I read Sifu's Questions and Answers, I read his books "The Art of Chi Kung" and "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu". Having done this all I wrote to him to ask advice on giving up smoking which he generously took the time to answer in great detail.

Having read the theory as written by Sifu i.e. within the framework / paradigm which was relevent and also having received Sifu's advice I made an informed decision. My decision was .... not sure if this is all rubbish or not, but what do I have to lose by giving it a try (or words to that effect). How I gave up smoking soon after is now history and can be found elsewhere on this forum.

Then I made the big move and took a course with Sifu in Italy. Having taken the course my major skepticism just disappeared (well .. a lot of it anyway ). I asked many questions of myself and of Sifu in the years since then. But basically I can say that a single personal experience was enough to remove the doubt which maybe hundreds of books could not have. And somehow my desire or, better said, deep need to understand how it all worked was answered too. The experiences confirmed what Sifu had written in his books. I no longer needed to search in the "western" paradigm for an explanation.

People used to laugh at the idea of people flying or even at the thought of a human travelling at more than 10 miles per hour without being killed ... a man in space .... naaaahh!! Show those same people a helicoper and a motor bike at work or the space shuttle being launched and the questions or doubts will be instantaneously removed. The scientists amongst them may want to investigate further about how and why it all works. The majority, however, will have received the confirmation they needed.

Regarding your suggestion about the stress management seminars. "Why not?" is my opinion. As long as it is clear that what is being learnt by the participants is Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung --- why not? I mean, Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung IS excellent from Stress Management. So there is no con. But

And one closing comment for now ..... please also remember that the Masters do not really need (and most are not even interested) to convince anyone about Chi or Chi Kung. They, and their students, already have the proof. The fact that they are willing to share their skills and knowledge with the public is a big break from tradition in the first place. So those who wish to learn and find out for themselves -- great. And those who wish to remain skeptics and never experience what MIGHT be something great for them --- great too. Each must follow his/her own path.

Oh yes....

If he refuses to demonstrate on Letterman himself or some random audience member, the laughter will grow.

Get Sifu an invite to Letterman's show and I'm sure he'd accept.

That same chi kung master advocating it as a relaxation technique and technique to stimulate oxygen flow to the organs will likely be listened to with interest by the audience.

I personally think that same Chi Kung Master would never make it past the doorman if this was all he had to offer. You could ask an aerobic teacher to do this type of talk on a chat show .... and they (those who get on TV) are most often quite attractive young ladies .... much better for attracting the male viewers

Andrew

[Andrew]

Telling someone that they should just take the master at their word and not question it is something that I am ethically allergic to. If that means I cant train Shaolin Wahnam or Chi Kung then so be it. Blindly following anyone, master or otherwise, is not how I work.

I think we can all agree on this one. As Anthony put it before:

We in Shaolin Wahnam never advise students to take things on faith alone. We advise students to practice exactly as taught for a resonable period of time and then decide for themselves. We do not ask students to go on faith for 3 years. In most cases, Sifu Wong's students are able to experience chi in a matter of hours. My own students experience chi within a few lessons. This is quite remarkable, and represents an intentional break from tradition.

Andrew