God versus Science

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hi Everybody,

I received this story from my wife's uncle. I'm sure some of you already know it. I found it very interesting. Enjoy


Guess who the student is.....


God vs Science

'Let me explain the problem science has with religion', the professor of philosophy announces to his new class of students.

He asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I am evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a moment.

'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'


'I wouldn't say that'


'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'


The student remains silent.


'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says.

He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'


'Then where does Satan come from?'


The student falters 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'


Again, the student has no answer.

'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'


The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'


'So who created them?'

'So who created them?'

There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.

'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies, 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own.
'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes'.

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.

The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.'

'Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy.

Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.

Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.'

'In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester.

'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God.

You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.'


'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.'

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.'

'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it everyday It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man.

It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'


To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

P.S.: the student was Albert Einstein.

[Maxime]

Thank you Sihing. Beautiful story.

It reminds me of a true story, which happened during the famous 'hippy times'in the sixties, in the campus of a famous uiversity:

One morning, students discovered a writing on a wall:

God is dead. Signed: Nietzsche.

The day goes by. The next morning, when students came for their daily classes, there was another writing added just below the first one:

Nietzsche is dead. Signed: God

[Darran]

Marvelous story sisook (I hope this is the correct way of addressing you).

However, I caught the end of a Phillip Pullman interview the other night on TV. He said, which I thought was rather enlightned, "There is no evil, only two opposing views of what is just and good". How many millions have been killed in the name of good?
Respectfully,

Darran

[Dougie]

Thank you for this great story Sipak Jeffrey

[Old-Liu]

Unfortunately, this never happened, certainly not involving Einstein. It's just an internet urban tale.

Well, I suppose the student in the example could ask 'can you prove it wasn't Einstein?' But that rather proves the point, I think, that we can easily be manipulated by a very famous mechanism of having us second guess what appears to be everything we know, but in reality is a means of making us doubt our reason. Once that goes, it's like presenting an argument which says 'anything could be true, therefore, my lie could be true' - which, unfortunatley, many unscrupulous people do use as an argument.

Einstein, although famously cited as a religious believer, didn't actually believe in the kind of God presented in the Bible or the main religions; he was a neo-Spinozan, seeing the universe itself, and the order therein, as having a kind of spiritual order to it.

Spinoza lived in a port town, and was almost certainly influenced by Eastern philosophies, including Buddhism, and it was through him that the West was first introduced to the 'God is everything' philosophy, which although quite popular amongst many modern Christians now, was actually a heresy - a very serious heresy - for most of the history of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, even in Spinoza's time; orthodox belief held that God was completely separate from his creation.

Nietzsche's 'God is dead' was meant by the great man to mean that our time as children, with a 'god figure' telling us what to do was over, and that each man now had to decide his own moral and ethical beliefs.

Apologies - I'm a bit of a philosophy nerd, lol.

The professor in the story wouldn't really have presented such an argument, I think. However, orthodox Christian thinking is, in fact, highly black and white. Due to having so many modern ideas, even in mainstream sects of Christianity, many don't realise how literal and black and white Christian thinking was for centuries.

[Darran]

Nietzsche's 'God is dead' was meant by the great man to mean that our time as children, with a 'god figure' telling us what to do was over, and that each man now had to decide his own moral and ethical beliefs.

This really worked for Nietzsche. Here is the result:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=alHu-nGqDHY

Eat your vegetables kids and plenty of dogma.

[DoubleA]

Awesome story...thank you for sharing. Orthodox Biblical Christianity today is still indeed black and white.

If shades are brought, it becomes not orthodox anymore. However, today, orthodox biblical christianity is the minority, and not the majority anymore.

Thanks again for the story. Whether true or not, I enjoyed the read.

DoubleA

[Jeffrey Segal]

Thanks, Old Liu, for debunking the story. I should have done a veracity check prior to posting. I still enjoy the story, true or not

[Old-Liu]

This really worked for Nietzsche. Here is the result:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=alHu-nGqDHY

Eat your vegetables kids and plenty of dogma.

What was he thinking in those moments, I wonder, that great man? Some people think he faked his mental illness.

An explorer of thought and reality is a dangerous thing to be. And maybe what he uncovered was so powerful that it would make anyone mad?

Like that poem says, given the choice again, I think he'd still make the to same one. A beautiful mind for sure - and very influenced by Buddhism.

[Darran]

An explorer of thought and reality is a dangerous thing to be. And maybe what he uncovered was so powerful that it would make anyone mad?

I'm not sure he was very well tethered to this world and hence became 'possessed' by the very nature of his inspiration. Who was it is the bible who "knew God and was NOT"? Can't remember.....

[Damian Kissey]

Creation versus Evolution

EVOLUTION : THE MONKEY'S VIEWPOINT

Three monkeys sat in a cocoanut tree
Discussing things as they're said to be.
Said one to the others, "Now listen, you two,
There's a certain rumor that can't be true.
That man descended from our noble race-
The very idea! It's a dire disgrace.

No monkey ever deserted his wife,
Starved her babies and ruined her life,
And you've never known a mother monk
To leave her babies with others to bunk,
Or pass them on from one to another
'Til they hardly know who is their mother.

And another thing! You will never see. . .
A monk build a fence 'round a cocoanut tree
And let the cocoanuts go to waste,
Forbidding all other monks to taste.
Why, if I put a fence around the tree,
Starvation would force you to steal from me.

Here's another thing a monk won't do. . .
Go out at night and get on a stew,
Or use a gun or club or knife
To take some other monkey's life,
Yes, Man descended, the ornery cuss. . .
But brother he didn't descend from us!

[pete]

Thank you for that Sipak Damian,

I used to listen to a song by Dave Bartholomew - an old jazz/blues cat, with those words as lyrics. I'm not sure if he wrote them though.

It brought back some nice memories.

[Damian Kissey]

..I'm not sure if he wrote them though.

It brought back some nice memories.

Salutation from Sabah Pete .
I found the poem by an anonymous author in a book talking about subtle energy / qi .

Best regards and smile from the Heart.

[Mark Blohm]

Before These Hills And Valleys Yet Formed

From a similar source as Dr. Damian's quotation:

BEFORE THESE HILLS AND VALLEYS YET FORMED

The following extract from a conversation in 1971 between Maharaj Charan Singh and a disciple refers to a letter written by the great mystic, Maharaj Sawan SIngh (1858-1948), to one of his disciples concerning his own spiritual preceptor, Baba Jaimal Singh (1839-1903). Considering that plate tectonics was not an academically acceptable theory until the late 1960s, the dating is of interest. The letter was written sometime during the 1920s about an incident which would have happened between 1894 and 1900.


Question: In a letter from Maharaj Sawan Singh to one of his American disciples, there is the quotation:

At Murrie Hills (in the Himalayan foothills) my house faced Maksh Puri (a place of Hindu pilgrimage). One day when Baba Ji (Baba Jaimal Singh) was visiting me, I pointed in that direction and said, 'Look Sir, what beautiful scenery!'
Baba Ji laughed and said, "I have seen it," implying that he had seen it long ago.
I asked, 'Was your regiment ever posted there?'
He replied, 'My child you do not understand these things. We saw this place at a time when these hills and valleys had not yet been formed.'

What did Baba Ji mean by this?

Maharaj Charan Singh: He is referring to his previous births. Now even the scientists and professors of geography tell us that all these hills were plains at one time. There may have been a sea where the Himalayas are now - scientists have found evidence for it. So Maharaj Ji was just saying how beautiful the hills were, and Baba Ji said: 'I have seen them before.' Maharaj Ji naturally thought he must have been posted there in the army.
But Baba Ji said: 'No, not in this life.' He is referring to some previous birth, when he came and saw all those places when there were no hills there.

[Darran]

Yes, Man descended, the ornery cuss. . .
But brother he didn't descend from us!

Apparently monkeys and chimps are capable of selfishness and dishonesty. On food gathering expeditions some monkeys have been observed doubling back on themselves on the sly and collecting food that only they had seen.