Bodhidhama

[Ray]

Dear friends,
I am writing a research paper on Bodhidharma and I came across an interesting argument by a modern historian:

This argument is summarized by modern historian Lin Boyuan in his Zhongguo wushu shi as follows:

As for the “Yi Jin Jing” (Muscle Change Classic), a spurious text attributed to Bodhidharma and included in the legend of his transmitting martial arts at the temple, it was writtin in the Ming dynasty, in 1624 CE, by the Daoist priest Zining of Mt. Tiantai, and falsely attributed to Bodhidharma. Forged prefaces, attributed to the Tang general Li Jing and the Southern Song general Niu Hao were written. They say that, after Bodhidharma faced the wall for nine years at Shaolin temple, he left behind an iron chest; when the monks opened this chest they found the two books “Xi Sui Jing” (Marrow Washing Classic) and “Yi Jin Jing” within. The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared; as for the second, “the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real. The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript.” Based on this, Bodhidharma was claimed to be the ancestor of Shaolin martial arts. This manuscript is full of errors, absurdities and fantastic claims; it cannot be taken as a legitimate source. (Lin Boyuan, Zhongguo wushu shi, Wuzhou chubanshe, p. 183)

I know this directly counters Sifu Wong's answers and books, can you tell me how Sifu Wong reached the conclusion that Sinew Metamophisis came from Shaolin and some references?

Thanks for your time,

Sincerely,

Ray Chang

[alexstedman]

Hi Ray

I too saw the same quote. I cannot remember where it was, but I dismissed it as a scholar who either

a) didn't know what he was talking about
b) was determined to not believe in either of the classics

I present my reasons here, looking at each part of the quoted text

As for the “Yi Jin Jing” (Muscle Change Classic), a spurious text attributed to Bodhidharma and included in the legend of his transmitting martial arts at the temple, it was writtin in the Ming dynasty, in 1624 CE, by the Daoist priest Zining of Mt. Tiantai, and falsely attributed to Bodhidharma.

The author seems adament that he is right and the rest of history is wrong. What makes me giggle is that he writes with such forcefullness, yet doesn't provide evidence for his findings. It is well known that many secrets were passed on through the generations orally, and not written down. It may well have been written in the Ming dynasty, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist before that time.

The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared

Silly. I'm not sure if the author means that Hui ke disappeared, or just the text. Hui Ke remained in the temple to transmit Zen to his students. This is a fact. So I guess the author means Hui Ke deliberatley kept the manuscript for himself. My argument to this is the same argument against

“the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real. The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript.”

He implies that both Hui Ke and the monks kept the secrets for themselves. While it is known that Chi Kung was not taught to everyone, this was because it was such an advanced art that only worthy disciples were allowed to learn it. To say Hui Ke was so selfish as to keep the secrets of Marrow-Washing to himself is distinctly anti-Buddhist. The author also puts quotation marks around this part. Again, where did he get such a quote from?

I know this directly counters Sifu Wong's answers and books, can you tell me how Sifu Wong reached the conclusion that Sinew Metamophisis came from Shaolin and some references?

That Sifu's lineage is descended directly from the Shaolin temple, and he is only the 4th generation successor (so very little room for changes to be made) is good enough for me. I don't know if Sifu has any references, but his word is true. Shaolin disciples do not lie (that includes his Sifu, his Sifu's Sifu and Venerable Jiang Nan)

I hope this helps. It's very interesting that you are writing an article on Bodhidharma. Maybe you could post it when you have completed it? I would be very intrigued to see what you have discovered.

Warm regards
Alex

[Ray]

Dear Alex,
Thanks for your posts. The commentary comes from a modern kungfu scholar who wrote his own version of the history of kungfu. My paper won't be very long, but I think that I would be too embarassed to post it on here plus I would see it as a form of cruel and unusual punishment. It is true that there is no evidence except heresay of Marrow Washing and Sifu Wong's interpretation of it is quite intriguing.
There are forged copies of Yi Jin Jing, I am pretty sure that this is true because I have seen them in other books that I have read. However it is complicated because some people feel that Yi Jin Jing is a text and a series of exercises while other people maintain that it is only a series of exercises.

Any clarifications?

Thanks,

Ray Chang

[Guest]

Hi Ray

I too saw the same quote. I cannot remember where it was, but I dismissed it as a scholar who either

a) didn't know what he was talking about
b) was determined to not believe in either of the classics

I present my reasons here, looking at each part of the quoted text



The author seems adament that he is right and the rest of history is wrong. What makes me giggle is that he writes with such forcefullness, yet doesn't provide evidence for his findings. It is well known that many secrets were passed on through the generations orally, and not written down. It may well have been written in the Ming dynasty, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist before that time.



Silly. I'm not sure if the author means that Hui ke disappeared, or just the text. Hui Ke remained in the temple to transmit Zen to his students. This is a fact. So I guess the author means Hui Ke deliberatley kept the manuscript for himself. My argument to this is the same argument against



He implies that both Hui Ke and the monks kept the secrets for themselves. While it is known that Chi Kung was not taught to everyone, this was because it was such an advanced art that only worthy disciples were allowed to learn it. To say Hui Ke was so selfish as to keep the secrets of Marrow-Washing to himself is distinctly anti-Buddhist. The author also puts quotation marks around this part. Again, where did he get such a quote from?



That Sifu's lineage is descended directly from the Shaolin temple, and he is only the 4th generation successor (so very little room for changes to be made) is good enough for me. I don't know if Sifu has any references, but his word is true. Shaolin disciples do not lie (that includes his Sifu, his Sifu's Sifu and Venerable Jiang Nan)

I hope this helps. It's very interesting that you are writing an article on Bodhidharma. Maybe you could post it when you have completed it? I would be very intrigued to see what you have discovered.

Warm regards
Alex

Couldn't have said it better

[alexstedman]

Hello!

I forgot about this thread, thanks for the nice words Shamser, and for bringing the thread back to light.

Ray, I think your question was some people believe Yi Jin Jing to be a text, while others consider it to be a set of exercises and which is true? Well, I thought it was a blend I had the impression it was a set of exercises that were later written down. So it is a text of exercises

Best wishes to all
Alex

[Ray]

Dear Alex,
It is really unclear to me what Yi Jing Jing is since there are so many different schools that teach their version of the exercises, furthermore I myself haven't run across any written text that sounds to me as something authentic. I heard that there are a couple places in Japan that actually have written versions that may be real written versions but I don't know what they describe are just exercises or more. I've even heard people say that the written text of Yi Jing Jing includes even military strategic thinking and arcane knowledge.
It's all heresay right now. The nice thing though is as long as I rely on my heart I'll know what's real and false.

Best,

Ray Chang

[Nobody1]

Go to this link

Forum,

Divineshadow, may I suggest you go to this link. My Sifu Anthony will give you some very good insite on this discussion.

www.russbo.com/discus/messages/1266/1955.html, this should help to clear a few things.





__________________________
Nobody

[shaolin_mike]

Hey i'm just curious about something, is the Dan in that discussion a Wahnam student?

[Luo Lang]

If you are refering to Dan Hartwright Siheng, then yes he was a student and instructor of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute:

http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2066&highlight=Dan+Hartwright

Roland

[Ray]

Dear brothers and sisters,
Seems like we got a chance to watch some verbal sparring. I remember once that someone from the Mushiendo (I spelled this wrong) institute mentioned the Yi Jing Jing as a written work and even had scans of the pages of the text. I guess if the written text is real it just teaches the movements of Yi Jing Jing.

Best,

Ray Chang

[Antonius]

Boy, that was a long time ago! And you guys think I'm harsh now. I'm like Gandhi compared to how I was four years ago.

[Ray]

Actually Sifu Anthony, I was reading your posts on that forum with the impression that it was some time ago. I am happy to see that we are all growing.

Best,

Ray Chang

[shaolin_mike]

I read quite a bit of that thread and I think Anthony stood up for himself very admirably. Also it was worth reading just to see the funny comments flying both ways
Unfortunately there was also a lot of junk and irrelevant stuff and it took me about 45 mins just to read a large chunk of that thread. I like this forum better

[Charles David]

And you guys think I'm harsh now

I don't think you're harsh.

Also it was worth reading just to see the funny comments

My favorite:

opponent says : "you're closed minded and unwilling to learn"
Antonius: "Gee, you think so? I'll think about that"




With Shaolin Salute,

[Sifu Stier]

Bodhi Pics!

Greetings Gentlemen:

I thought that a few pics of the Venerable Bodhidharma from my collection might add some flavor to the original topic of this thread. Hope you like them.

Sifu Stier