Using Taijiquan against Western boxing

[Jeffrey Segal]

Greetings from Sungai Petani!

I'm slowly making my way back to Zurich after 2 months in Australia and as it would be a shame to fly over Malaysia without stopping to say hello, I wrote Sifu an email telling him that I was in the neighbourhood. He generously invited me to join in the last training session of the current intensive Shaolin Kungfu course and took the opportunity to explain and show some of the many counters that we have at our disposal in Wahnam Taijiquan to use against western boxers.

As usual it's based on the concept of using our strengths against the opponent's weaknesses and not falling into the trap of putting our weaknesses at the mercy of the opponent's strengths. Well done Stephen.

So, what can we do against a fast agile boxer? Slow down and use our firm but flexible stances. Swallow his punches by sinking back and turning the waist to deflect them so that we control both his arms with just our lead arm. One very suitable pattern is Green Dragon Shoots Pearl. To obtain extra reach we can also deflect his punch using the Unicorn Step, advancing into Bow Arrow to shoot or present the pearl.

Another principle that can be applied is using long range techniques against short range techniques. This can take the form of kicks, particularly side kicks as found in Wahnam Taijiquan and Chen Style Taijiquan and surprisingly enough, Single Whip, which works on the same principles of swallowing and counterattacking described above.

As is always the case, it's not enough just to know the correct techniques. Systematic practice both alone and with partners is absolutely necessary.

I hope this gives some answers to those of you who were pondering this matter. Many thanks to Sifu for taking such an interest in the forum and for sharing these pearls with us. As for me, I'm going to go and join Sifu, Simu, Linda, Neeta, Gordon, Michael, Chris, Pascal and Peter (the last 5 being participants in the intensive Kungfu course) for their well deserved graduation dinner at one of my favourite Chinese vegetarian restaurants

[KungFuJoe]

Many thanks to you and Master Wong for sharing this information with us.

[DarkCosmoz]

Thank you very much Jeffrey Seagal and Sifu Wong.

[Quatro Bajina]

Thank you to both Sifu Wong and
Jeffrey Segal for answering my question.

I really appreciate it.

[DarkCosmoz]

Since we're on the subject of using taijiquan/kungfu forms against western boxing, I thought I might as well post this idea I suddenly had . Sifu Wong generously explains how to use Shaolin Kungfu against Western Boxing in [http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/combat/boxing.html]. The four main Shaolin patterns presented are Single Tiger Emerges From Cave, Lohan Strikes Drum, Throw Ball in Waves, and Precious Duck Swims Through Lotus. For a taijiquan exponent, can he use instead from Yang Cheng Fu's form Lifting Hands (replaces Single Tiger), White Crane Flaps Wings (replaces Lohan Strikes Drum), Single Whip (replaces Throw Ball in Waves), and Cross Hands Single Kick (replaces Precious Duck)?

[KungFuJoe]

Hey DarkCosmoz,

I think that you are basically correct. You can counter with those patterns if you want, so long as they work for you. That's really the key thing.

The Yang long form has everything you need to practice great martial arts I think. The difference between it and kung-fu seems to be more of a stylistic thing.

For example, to counter a side-kick with Lohan Strikes Drum, I would aim my training to develop force so that I could break an ankle with the technique. In the Yang Form, I'd train to redirect with White Crane then throw my opponent away with Fan Through The Back.

So both systems can counter any attack, but they vary stylistically as to what the exponent is aiming for.

Hope this helps!

[DarkCosmoz]

Thank you very much KungFuJoe!

[Schermitore]

Don't Underestimate Western Boxing

Originally posted by Jeffrey Segal
Greetings from Sungai Petani!

I'm slowly making my way back to Zurich after 2 months in Australia and as it would be a shame to fly over Malaysia without stopping to say hello, I wrote Sifu an email telling him that I was in the neighbourhood. He generously invited me to join in the last training session of the current intensive Shaolin Kungfu course and took the opportunity to explain and show some of the many counters that we have at our disposal in Wahnam Taijiquan to use against western boxers.

As usual it's based on the concept of using our strengths against the opponent's weaknesses and not falling into the trap of putting our weaknesses at the mercy of the opponent's strengths. Well done Stephen.

So, what can we do against a fast agile boxer? Slow down and use our firm but flexible stances. Swallow his punches by sinking back and turning the waist to deflect them so that we control both his arms with just our lead arm. One very suitable pattern is Green Dragon Shoots Pearl. To obtain extra reach we can also deflect his punch using the Unicorn Step, advancing into Bow Arrow to shoot or present the pearl.

Another principle that can be applied is using long range techniques against short range techniques. This can take the form of kicks, particularly side kicks as found in Wahnam Taijiquan and Chen Style Taijiquan and surprisingly enough, Single Whip, which works on the same principles of swallowing and counterattacking described above.

As is always the case, it's not enough just to know the correct techniques. Systematic practice both alone and with partners is absolutely necessary.

I hope this gives some answers to those of you who were pondering this matter. Many thanks to Sifu for taking such an interest in the forum and for sharing these pearls with us. As for me, I'm going to go and join Sifu, Simu, Linda, Neeta, Gordon, Michael, Chris, Pascal and Peter (the last 5 being participants in the intensive Kungfu course) for their well deserved graduation dinner at one of my favourite Chinese vegetarian restaurants

You folks make it sound really easy to deal with a Western boxer, when in fact it is not necessarily so.

Western boxers arguably have the most dynamic hands in the martial arts, and, before anyone here resorts to the cliche that it is merely a limited sport, perhaps you should keep in mind the fact that it has been adopted as the standard method of punching in virtually all the major combat sports that allow striking (boxing, kickboxing, MMA/NHB, etc). If you think that stopping a boxer is as simple as resorting to a "firm but flexible stance" or using the "Unicorn step", you are sadly mistaken.

Boxers come from a long tradition of highly effective Western martial arts and combat sports. The ancient Greeks and Romans, two of the greatest martial cultures the world has ever known, were very big on boxing (note also that they were also great wrestlers, and they didn't ignore MMA either, as they had the pankration). It has even been argued that the transplant of Greco-Macedonian fighting techniques during Alexander's stay in India may in fact make Greece, as opposed to India, the original source for the techniques that would ultimately become known as kung-fu. However, since I don't personally subscribe to the "Single Birthplace For All Martial Arts" theory, I doubt this myself.

Modern boxing, on the other hand, can trace its more immediate origins to the bare-knuckle pugilism that was practiced by the English, from at least the early 18th century onwards. The pugilsm of that period was considerably different from modern boxing, and made use of a vertical fist punch that employed the bottom three knuckles. In fact, for the past 20 years or so, modern martial historians have theorized on the influence that British pugilism may have had on the origins and develpment of Wing Chun kung-fu, as the two arts have many similarities. The case for a British influence on Wing Chun is actually far more convincing than the one for an influence of Greek pugilism and pankration on earlier Indian and Chinese styles. When the French were codifying their art of savate, they took their hand techniques from English boxing.

Boxing's effectiveness has been proven time and again in the ring, and its techniques have also been used in street self-defense (Jack Dempsey taught this, for example). We should also not overlook that, since boxers spar full-contact as a matter of course, they are in tremendous condition, and know how to take a punch, as well as deliver one. To underestimate what they can do, or dismiss their ability as being limited by sporting rules, is sheer folly.

Respectfully,

David Black Mastro

[Javier]

KF replacement by TCC

Greetings from Madrid,

I´d like to give an answer to the question stated by DarkCosmoz about the replacement of the four Shaolin Kungfu patterns provided by Sifu with the Taijiquan patterns "Lifting Hands", "White Crane Flaps Wings", "Single Whip" and "Cross Hands Single Kick". His is an interesting idea, but the answer is "No".

There are two main reasons. The first one is that, although these Taijiquan patterns suggested resemble the Shaolin patterns provided by Sifu, they are actually not the same. For example, while "Lifting Hands" is a good replacement for "Single Tiger", "White Crane Flaps Wings" would not perform the task as effectively as "Lohan Strikes Drum" in this case. The effectiveness of "Lohan Strikes Drum" depends much on the wide Bow-Arrow Stance, whereas "White Crane Flaps Wings" employs the False Leg Stance. Even if we use a wide Bow-Arrow Stance for "White Crane Flaps Wings", the spreading out of the arms is different in effect from striking an arm down.

With "White Crane Flaps Wings" followed by "Single Whip" it is not possible to swing, deflect and counter-attack in the same way as with "Lohan Strikes Drum" followed by "Throw Ball in Waves". In fact these two Taijiquan pattens would expose the Taijiquan exponent to a fast series of punches of the Western Boxer.

"Cross Hands Single Kick" is a good technique against a Western Boxer, but it works differently from "Precious Duck Swims Through Lotus".

The second reason, which is more important, is that the combat principles of Taijiquan are different from those of Shaolin Kungfu. That is why those Shaolin patterns against Western Boxing are not found in Taijiquan. It was not because our past Taijiquan masters did not know about these patterns, but because they did not find them useful in the Taijiquan context. It is the same principle behind why Sifu Wong often advocates that kungfu
exponents should not bounce about like Western Boxers do, although bouncing about is effective in Western Boxing.

How we may apply Taijiquan principles, skills and techniques has been very well explained by Jeffrey.

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hello David,

It’s kind of you to take a break from my Shaolinquan brothers to come and let those of us interested in Taijiquan benefit from your obviously almost inexhaustible historical knowledge and didactic inclinations. I’ve been reading your posts since you joined the forum and have found some of them very interesting.

Did I say in my post that it is easy to use Taijiquan to handle Western boxers?

Does my post make you think that I underestimate the skill and ability of Western boxers to take punches?

Is it possible that in your desire to educate us you may have failed to understand the gist of the thread?

I for one have never claimed to be a great fighter. I don’t spend hours each week on various forums. I am a Wahnam Qigong and Taijiquan instructor who trains regularly, aspiring to the ideal of training Taijiquan as Qigong and a wonderful method of Spiritual cultivation as well as being able to use Taijiquan as a martial art. I believe that our training methods have been quite well documented on various threads on this forum and on the Wahnam websites.

A question was raised on the forum about using Taijiquan against Western boxing. I answered that question to the best of my ability, with the assistance of Grandmaster Wong. I don’t think that my post belittled Western boxing in the slightest. It was more my intention to offer some insight into some Taijiquan techniques that could be useful against Western boxing. Surely we’re all mature enough to realise that a great fighter will be a great fighter no matter what his art and that merely being a student of a great art is in itself not enough.

I wonder how deeply you understand the application of the Unicorn Step and the significance of using a firm but flexible stance. Please don’t think I’m talking down to you or trying to provoke you. I have neither the time nor the inclination to get involved in or with polemics.

I did, I believe mention that knowing the techniques is not enough and that one must practice diligently alone and with partners to attain any reasonable level of proficiency.

I’m not quite sure what the purpose of you post is. Do you wish to sing the praises of the glorious history of boxing? What does that have to do with the matter at hand? All I wished to convey in my post is that we do have techniques in Wahnam Taijiquan that, if practiced correctly, will offer the Taijiquan exponent some useful ways of countering an opponent who has trained in western boxing. I did not wish to suggest that it is easy to handle a competent boxer, nor did I wish to claim that there are any shortcuts to becoming a good fighter.

Do you know what David? I’d really love it if you would post a photo of yourself somewhere on the forum. It would be nice to be able to put a face to your posts. In fact, I have some other questions for you and I hope you won’t take them the wrong way.

How much do you train and teach these days and how often do you yourself compete in competitions?

How much personal experience do you have in the things you write about?

Do you often engage in full contact combat?

Here are my own answers to those questions.

I train Shaolin Qigong and Wahnam Taijiquan daily. I usually teach twice a week. Apart from once or twice in my karate days I haven’t entered in any competitions. When I meet my Wahnam Taijiquan and Shaolinquan brothers we engage in combat training and free sparring but it’s certainly not full contact. I try as much as possible to write from personal experience. That said, I have not trained against Western boxers but I think it’s pretty clear now that for the purposes of this thread, which is meant to answer a question from one of the members of the forum, I may be forgiven for offering advice that I have not fully tested myself.

So David if you have time, I’d be fascinated to know a little more about you. If your skill with the sword is any match for your skill with the pen (read keyboard) then you must be a truly formidable fencer.

Best wishes,

[celticdragon]

I would just like to commend Schermitore on his extensive knowledge regarding Boxing history.
The greatest strength that Boxers have is that they learn and practice the basics continuously. There is nothing clever in this approach. The jab is the most effective punch in any fighters repertoire but very few fighters really learn how to use it, i.e. by doubling. or trebling, up on the jab. This puts the opponent off trying to execute any kind of counter and immediately opens them up for a right cross, left hook, uppercut, etc.
I started off learning Kung Fu as a kid and, due to moving towns, I was never able to find another style that I thought was as effective. Instead I turned to boxing because even average boxers are equipped to deal with the most experienced Martial Artist. I always maintained some sort of Kung Fu by practising what my original Sifu taught me, and have trained in a few other styles also. I have seen many Black Belts come unstuck against a boxer using his "limited" skills. I have moved back to mainly Martial training over the last number of years and have been sparring again. I still use my hands more as they are too good to just forget.
I am in no doubt that there are exponents out there who can execute all of the techniques which are talked about to combat boxers, but they are few and far between.

Cheers,

Richard

[Schermitore]

Hello Jeffrey,

Originally posted by Jeffrey Segal
Hello David,

It’s kind of you to take a break from my Shaolinquan brothers to come and let those of us interested in Taijiquan benefit from your obviously almost inexhaustible historical knowledge and didactic inclinations.

Well thanks. Things have kinda slowed down on the Shaolin board, so I thought that I'd take a look around and see what else is on GM Kit's site (and it's a nicely put together site, BTW).

I’ve been reading your posts since you joined the forum and have found some of them very interesting.

Really? I am quite flattered, sir.

Did I say in my post that it is easy to use Taijiquan to handle Western boxers?

Does my post make you think that I underestimate the skill and ability of Western boxers to take punches?

In all seriousness, yes--your post makes me think that you underestimate Western boxing in general.

In fact, judging from the posts/threads I have seen on this site, it sometimes seems that you and the rest of your CMA bretheren underestimate, well... anything that isn't CMA.

Is it possible that in your desire to educate us you may have failed to understand the gist of the thread?

Of course! Please educate me if I have failed at "getting it", so to speak.

I for one have never claimed to be a great fighter.

Nor have I, for that matter--though I can hold my own pretty well as a fencer.

I don’t spend hours each week on various forums.

I have, as of late.

I do this specifically because I love to write, though for some reason I have not been able to get anywhere with my own projects recently (various articles that I wish to publish), and so I post on various forums partially to learn, partially to educate, and primarily for the sheer joy of writing, even though it is just an online format.

I am a Wahnam Qigong and Taijiquan instructor who trains regularly, aspiring to the ideal of training Taijiquan as Qigong and a wonderful method of Spiritual cultivation as well as being able to use Taijiquan as a martial art. I believe that our training methods have been quite well documented on various threads on this forum and on the Wahnam websites.

My older brother is a longtime student of Tai Chi (pardon my spelling). He has found it useful over the years from a health perspective.

A question was raised on the forum about using Taijiquan against Western boxing. I answered that question to the best of my ability, with the assistance of Grandmaster Wong. I don’t think that my post belittled Western boxing in the slightest.

I don't think it did either, but it also didn't address the dangers of facing a Western boxer, or any other full-contact standup exponent. I offered the potential thoughts of underestimating boxing because it's a sport, because that is a common criticism that comes from the traditional MA community in general.

It was more my intention to offer some insight into some Taijiquan techniques that could be useful against Western boxing. Surely we’re all mature enough to realise that a great fighter will be a great fighter no matter what his art and that merely being a student of a great art is in itself not enough.

I submit that a great fighter will be specific about what art he chooses, and I also submit that some styles are indeed better than others. The commonly heard statement, "it's the man, not the art" is not entirely true.

I wonder how deeply you understand the application of the Unicorn Step and the significance of using a firm but flexible stance.

The "Unicorn stance" is something I know nothing about, and to truly understand what you are saying about a "firm but flexible stance", I would probably have to actually work with you, so you could show me. I did, however, find it amusing how you spoke of punches in the singular, as if a boxer is simply going to throw just one.

And keep in mind that boxers have fought against exponents from other arts, and exponents from other arts have incorporated boxing hand techniques into their repertoire. One does not here of "Unicorn stances" and the like in the combat sports of today, and one has to wonder why. Perhaps you could explain it in detail...

Please don’t think I’m talking down to you or trying to provoke you. I have neither the time nor the inclination to get involved in or with polemics.

Hey, that's fine, bro. The only person on this site I ever got that feeling from is Antonius. His arrogance is ultimately amusing, though.

I did, I believe mention that knowing the techniques is not enough and that one must practice diligently alone and with partners to attain any reasonable level of proficiency.

Why didn't you recommend to your students to go down to the local boxing gym and work with actual boxers on those techniques? One would think that the best way to learn how to fight a boxer would be to work with boxers.

That's what cross-training is all about.

I’m not quite sure what the purpose of you post is. Do you wish to sing the praises of the glorious history of boxing?

I sometimes suspect an ignorance of other arts on certain forums, including this one. Because of that, I see no harm in giving people a little info on these things.

What does that have to do with the matter at hand?

Everything.

It has everything to do with the matter at hand.

The subject was Tai Chi techniques to use against a Western boxer. Therefore, one may assume that the boxer is, after all, the adversary in this case, and one should "know thy enemy", wouldn't you say? Did not Sun Tzu speak of this?

All I wished to convey in my post is that we do have techniques in Wahnam Taijiquan that, if practiced correctly, will offer the Taijiquan exponent some useful ways of countering an opponent who has trained in western boxing.

But since you're not actually working with Western boxers, how can you know this?

I did not wish to suggest that it is easy to handle a competent boxer, nor did I wish to claim that there are any shortcuts to becoming a good fighter.

Then perhaps you should have mentioned something of the dangers of going against a competent boxer.

Do you know what David? I’d really love it if you would post a photo of yourself somewhere on the forum. It would be nice to be able to put a face to your posts.

I have nothing to link them from.

In fact, I have some other questions for you and I hope you won’t take them the wrong way.

Not at all, good sir.

How much do you train and teach these days and how often do you yourself compete in competitions?

I don't teach anyone, unless one counts simply working with friends in an informal fashion, or refereeing knife sparring matches at the freestyle school I train at.

I typically used to train three days a week (though not always on a "Mon/Wed/Fri" schedule), though that hasn't been the case recently (my mother passed away just last month, and I'm working on selling her old house at the moment). I used to compete in "dry" (non-electric) fencing competitions, but I don't like the electrically-scored bouts, because the sensitivity of the weapons encourages a distorted sense of distance, for those who train in fencing as an actual fighting method (and we are a comparatively rare bunch). I do, however, have plenty of experience bouting against top-notch fencers.

I have wanted to compete in the limited-armor stickfighting FMA bouts, but the only format offered locally seems to be the full-armored bouts, which have a ridiculous and totally unrealistic scoring method, which does not interest me. I don't know, perhaps I'll eventually have to travel elsewhere to compete in my format of preference.

Because of the above, my FMA experience has been limited to sparring with my fellow students and friends, both at the school I train at and elsewhere.

I had also planned to engage in a sword sparring competition (open to all styles) that is going to be held at a Kung-Fu school in NYC in October; I may still go, but because of my mother's illness and recent passing, I have not had an opportunity to really train and prepare for it.

How much personal experience do you have in the things you write about?

A great deal, I think. I started fencing back in '94. I began FMA in '97. I'm newer to BJJ, but I've got some good teachers.

As for academics, I'm a Rutgers drop-out. The vast majority of my historical knowledge is the result of being self-taught. I have an extensive library, and I have had letters published in numerous historical and MA/CS periodicals over the years.

I trained for 3.5 years in Western fencing of the French School--mostly foil, but some saber as well. I continue to fence, but I no longer formally train in it. My focus shifted to FMA several years ago, and to BJJ more recently.

Do you often engage in full contact combat?

Foil fencing is "full contact", but since one is not getting whacked upside the head in such bouts (it's a point-only weapon), I'll leave that out.

I often engage in full-contact armored stick sparring, as well as knife sparring. I also regularly "roll" in BJJ, which is the grappling equivilent of full-contact sparring.

However, I do not personally train in any unarmed standup striking arts (with the exception of the unarmed applications of my FMA training).

I have friends who are MMA/NHB fighters, and I have worked with them. I have nothing but the utmost respect for such fighters. They really go through hell, IMO. They're tougher than most other people. This is something that I think many traditional martial artists don't realize.

Here are my own answers to those questions.

I train Shaolin Qigong and Wahnam Taijiquan daily. I usually teach twice a week. Apart from once or twice in my karate days I haven’t entered in any competitions. When I meet my Wahnam Taijiquan and Shaolinquan brothers we engage in combat training and free sparring but it’s certainly not full contact.

This is something I see as a problem, for an exponent of a standup striking art (especially one who is offering advice on how to fight someone who spars full-contact as a matter of course).

I try as much as possible to write from personal experience. That said, I have not trained against Western boxers but I think it’s pretty clear now that for the purposes of this thread, which is meant to answer a question from one of the members of the forum, I may be forgiven for offering advice that I have not fully tested myself.

Fair enough.

So David if you have time, I’d be fascinated to know a little more about you. If your skill with the sword is any match for your skill with the pen (read keyboard) then you must be a truly formidable fencer.

Best wishes,

LOL, like I said, I can hold my own, sword-wise, but there are so many facets to both armed and unarmed combat, I would never even think to claim that I'm any sort of badass.

In fact, I can assure you that I am not.

Peace,

David Black Mastro

[DarkCosmoz]

javiergalve,

Thank you for your well written clarification. I appreciate it!

Schermitore,

Hey, that's fine, bro. The only person on this site I ever got that feeling from is Antonius. His arrogance is ultimately amusing, though.

I think this statement is rather rude and unfair. If you read Antonius's or any other Wahnam instructor's post carefully, you'll find that none of them are trying to be arrogant. In fact, they're being very helpful by clarifying misunderstood information in the least arrogant way.

Regards,
Stephen

[Dan]

Photos

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you know what David? I’d really love it if you would post a photo of yourself somewhere on the forum. It would be nice to be able to put a face to your posts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have nothing to link them from.

As a quick side note; if David or anyone else actively participating in this forum would like to post a photo of themselves or another image relevant to a discussion then you are welcome to email them to me and we are happy to host them on Wahnam.com for this purpose.

Of course, if someone sends me badly photoshop'd pictures of Ken Shamrock with their head on I may have to reconsider posting them....



It would be nice to put names and faces together.

Also, please don’t discuss this here, if you want to discuss it create a separate thread.

[YunXiang]

Hi All!

From reading my Jeffery Sihing's post, I do not get the impression that he is demeaning or belittling Western Boxing. There is no sign to suggest that "Western Boxing is not effective" in his post. Furthermore, he does not even mention the Taijiquan exponent will win or lose against the Western boxer. I just see information about what a genuine Taijiquan exponent would typically do against a Western boxer.

In fact, he is freely giving out valuable information that he learnt from Sifu. Even if you do not study Taijiquan, I believe the principles and application is good to know. So, I thank Sihing for posting it and Sifu with generously sharing his experience and knowledge.

Smile from the Heart,
Mike.