horse stance

[tony]

Hello,

I have been practising the horse stance for a while now, learnt from Sifu's book, and have difficulty staying in a parrallel stance for more than a minute at a time. The problem seems to be that my knees what to come in. Could this mean that my hips are too tight. Should I practise the strecthing before the stances and also after the stances.

What would be a good exercise to help keep the weight of the knees and also keep the knees out. Is it ok to incorporate an execrise bicycle into the traing to strengthen the legs

Also how is it possible to keep the mind of the pain that orginates from this stance. If I try and relax too much my stance just collapses. Any ideas.

Best reagrds

Tony

[subclock]

Hi Tony ,

The Wahnam instructors may correct me on this , but i would advise that you practise the stance a little higher ,ntil your legs and knees are strong enough to handle the strain .Then, slowly work your way lower into the stance .

Best Wishes ,
Kevin

[KungFuJoe]

Hello Tony,

I started following the horse stance course from Sifu's book about five months ago, as a preparation for a course.

I tend to agree with Kevin. If you need to raise your stance to do it right, go ahead. We northerners use a somewaht elevated stance anyways.

I personally find it better to do the leg stretching exercises after stance training as the muscles are more warm. But before isn't going to hurt... unless you pull something.


Over time, your time length and flexibility will improve. You're doing fine. You are in fact extremely lucky in that you are able to train correctly right from the beginning.

Have you practiced some lifting the sky as well?

[KungFuJoe]

Hello again Tony,

I forgot about your question re cycling. I would say no. To make proper progress, you do not need to incorporate Western methods like jogging, weights, cycling, etc.

This leads me to something...

About six months ago I was where you are now. There was a discussion on the reality of internal force and many thought that it was a delusion. So I said that I would follow the a course on the horse riding stance and lifting the sky for six months. I said that I would update my results to the forum.

Initially I was doing what you were doing. Western training, and added lifting the sky and the horse stance. Then Anthony commented that I should do lifting the sky for a while first. I practiced lifting the sky twice a day (morning and night for about two months). After that, I added the horse stance every morning and night after lifting the sky. Shortly therafter I added the exercise Green Dragon Presents Claws.

My personal program is now lifting the sky and green dragon in the morning (followed by three points to the ground). At night I do green dragon and the horse stance (and leg stretching). I do that everyday, regardless of anything else. I also do as much technique training as I can, although school is now hurting that a little bit and will for a while longer. I've been following this for about the last four months.

The results of the program are tremendous. Initially I did western exercises like skipping and heavy bag training with this program. Later on, I stopped the western training completely because the chi kung and horse stance were having a far better effect on me. For one, they didn't tire me. I can't affoard to have an exercise program that tires me out. For another, hitting a puching bag was causing me knuckle problems which green dragon has helped alot with. Secondly, the traditional exercises were increasing my force and my energy levels, as well as my health.

Initially, when I was at your stage, I did about one minute too. But I did it at least three times. Now I can do more than five minutes, although not my goal of ten yet. It also varies depending on how hard I work my legs (i.e. less after a long and training session for a day or two).

Initially my force improved tremendously (like doubled). Now it is more of a slow growth. My dragon claw has been improved, although the results of that exercise have not been as dramatic. I am much more comfortable striking with the level fist now, where as initially I preferred the snake strike.

I can't elaborate right now. But I'll send more along soon.

[Antonius]

Tony,

I'm not sure what you mean by the knees wanting to come in. This is one of the problems of learning through books or the internet. Letting the knees come in a bit might be fine. Or it might be wrong. I can't really say without seeing your stance.

Generally speaking, you should practice stretching after practicing the horse stance because the stance training tends to tighten you up.

As for keeping the stance "alive," there was a discussion about that on here a while ago:

http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1006

Joe,

Keep up the good work.

[tony]

horse stance

Hello everyone,

Thanks for your replies - they have been most informative.

I should have been more specific in the problem that I seem to be having with the horse stance.

Can you guys please clarify :-

1. when in the stance - should my weight be evenly distributed in the centre of the feet or should I have the weight more on the heels and should I be striving to push the knees further out.

2. When I am in the stance my right foot tend to slide out so that my toes are not pointing straight put slighty out. If I try and rectify the situation by trying to keep the toes straight and then push the knees out - my right foot seems to roll out so that the weight on the right side is on the out side of the foot.

The higher up in the stance I am the flatter the feet stay - its just when I go lower in the stance that the problem arises.

Sorry for all the questions but this stance intrigues me and occassionally when I get the stance right (which is very occassionally) I feel very warm all over.

best regards

Tony

[Darryl]

Re: horse stance

Originally posted by tony
1. when in the stance - should my weight be evenly distributed in the centre of the feet or should I have the weight more on the heels and should I be striving to push the knees further out.

Your weight should be neither in your heels or your toes, nor on your left foot or your right. This way, if you ever feel your weight at any of these points, then your form is incorrect.

In regards to pushing out your knees, it is not a definite 'push' that you make with your knees, but an action taken to avoid having your stance collapse inwards (and to stengthen it).

I would suggest that when practicing Horse Stance, you start with your feet. Have them 2 1/2 - 3 times your shoulder width apart, make sure your back is straight, your hands are by your sides and your hips are tucked forwards. Then gradually lower yourself into your stance. As you lower yourself, make sure your legs (knees) are going outwards and not inwards as your stance lowers. Once you reach your point of personal tension (as low as you can go without disrupting your form) I would suggest that you rise slightly and stay there. This way, your stance will gradually lower over time and you will be able to relax throughout the exercise. Please note that relaxing does not mean 'taking it easy'. Every now and again, check your feet are still parallel, your knees are 'out', your hands by your side and your back straight. Then enjoy your breathing and enjoy your training.

I agree with Anthony Sihing that since we cannot see what you are doing it is harder to offer advice but if you take your time and progress slowly, I am sure that your stance will develop faster than if you try and rush it.

[KungFuJoe]

Honestly, do the stance as low as you can with doing it right.

Many people have trouble even getting into the horse stance because they are not strong and flexible to begin with. Don't worry about how low it is, do it high and correct or don't do it. You can really hurt youself if you mess around with this. I know the stance since I had previous training, and even then I'm staying high and taking it slow until I can get corrected.

If you want, just do lifting the sky, three points to the ground, leg stretching and the 8 basic patterns in the book. That should also be decent preparation for a course I would think.

Jason is right. We get nowhere without personal instruction. All we are doing is preparing for courses in advance so as to get the best results.

In that regard, is there any way to register for the next Toronto course in advance?

Thanks,

Joe

[George]

Re: Re: horse stance

Hello. I never did introduce myself to the forum. I'm George, one of the junior Wahnam students in London.

Originally posted by Darryl
I would suggest that when practicing Horse Stance, you start with your feet. Have them 2 1/2 - 3 times your shoulder width apart

2.5-3 times? That's a lot wider than we've been doing it (2 in our case). Any particular reason, or is Sifu just going easy on us? (or maybe it's another one of those changes that I managed to miss while away at Uni?)

[Darryl]

A margin for error

Hi George, welcome to the forum

I use '2 1/2 - 3' as a general figure and while it may be different in some of your classes, this is where the advantage of direct observation comes in. When first learning stances, I have students walk their feet out, later on they can step out to approximately twice their shoulder width and then adjust their footing, later on again they will just step out and later still, jump straight into their stance. As I would not be there in person to make corrections and confirm correct stances, the advice I give on the forum includes a safety buffer.

It is also the character of the different schools and the different instructors. One of my students came down to the London classes and was immediately recognised by your Sifu as having learned from me. Likewise, when he came back up and demonstrated a form he had learned, I could tell instantly who he had learned it from. While everyone is performing the same patterns, there are always little differences from person to person. Students reflect these differences in thier own practice as well, identifying themselves to other students and instructors.

In fact, I have yet to see two people practice Lifting The Sky exactly the same way.

[George]

Thanks! Back to lurking on the forum for me...

[KungFuJoe]

Hello again,

Joe,

Joe, Keep up the good work

Thanks Anthony, I'm in for the long haul.

As for continuing with the stance course, there only two more things I'd like to mention...

1) Traditional Shaolin stances and techniques, if used properly, seem to require the traditional methods of force and skills training to back them up. I could not get good results using traditional stances with a conditioning program of jogging, skipping and weight lifting. With a program of the horse stance and green dragon however, I could get much better results. I expect that the next best two exercises to add would be thirty punches and one-finger zen.

Thrity punches is a good example of what I mean though. People in the MMA community do not like hip chambered punches. That's fair enough. The hand has farther to move and they involve a drop in guard. If, however, you are using traditional stances and training thrity punches, I can see how black tiger can become faster and more powerful than the lead jab of boxing. My black tiger is not as good as my jab yet, but I can see how in a year or so it will be better with thirty punches training.

Mobility in stances is another example. Why use precious duck as a defense when I can back up like a boxer and use a lead hook to my opponent's body? The reason now is that after horse stance training, I think my precious duck became better than my lead hook! With skipping and weights, my precious duck would never be that good.

2) People who think that traditional methods of training force are delusional or a trick or think that they are for "flowery fists" and not fighting have not put an honest six months of reasonable practice into them. Period.

I'm not saying I'm better than MMA people, but only that the tradiitonal training program has given me better results than the modern Western version. That's good reason to continue it. And for me that's the bottom line to the internal force discussion.

I still would however find it funny to read messages from people who implied that Anthony's force was somehow delusional. Calling someone with that level of Zen training delusional is kind of hysterical, don't you think?

Regards from a freezing day in Canada!

Joe

[KungFuJoe]

Hello yasminejade,

I honestly think that you ought to wait for a Wahnam instructor to respond before proceeding to push the horse stance. What you are describing is possible a hallucinatory negative effect and is a good reason why I am reluctant to really push the horse stance until I can get personal instruction.

Master Wong has said on several websites that stance training, if not done properly, can have profound negative effects. I have not had such an experience, but if I were I think I would stop right away.

I did feel some pain in my right knee at a site of an old sparring injury, but I think this was good pain and I'm feeling less of it now. If what you are describing seems more "hallucinatory", it may be a good time to stop before something else develops.

What are your goals in training the horse stance?

Joe

[Andrew]

Hallo yasminjade,

Very interesting description which implies a connection with the Rush Meridian. From what you have described it is difficult to tell whether or not you have achieved a major break-through (the rise of the Rush Meridian), local tension or the generation of chi. Before being able to say, I would like to ask a couple of additional questions:
- How do you feel after your practice sessions where this occurs? (fresh, pleasant, highly energised, miserable, weak, sad ....)
- The sensation you mention. Is it absolutely local or it is more widely spread?
- Can you try to describe the scent a bit more. Is it strong, sweet, alcoholic smelling, gentle ....

Once I have these answers, I may be able to shed more light on this experience.

Generally, however, your experience is most likely either the rise of the Rush Meridian or a build up of chi - both of which are positive. These are more likely than the tension (although not 100% certain .... yet) which could have been the cause of the similar sensation from your previous attempts at training the Horse Stance before having learnt to relax from Sifu.

I look forward to your replies to my questions.

Andrew

[KungFuJoe]

could have been the cause of the similar sensation from your previous attempts at training the Horse Stance before having learnt to relax from Sifu.

Ah... Sorry for being overly worried. I didn't realize that you had learned from Sifu Wong.

I was concerned that you were just trying to replicate what I was doing and running into trouble.

Best regards,

Joe