Sun Tzu's The Art of War

[Andrew R]

Hey Everyone,

Last night I saw a good documentary about The Art of War and applying it to modern battles. It showed that any time a battle was fought in a way that somehow went against its teachings, things did not go well. I had read the book in the past but seeing the teachings applied in this way really helped open up my understanding of Sun Tzu's principles.

The documentary analyzes the battle between the Wu and Chu dynasties, the US Civil War, the Vietnam War and WWII. Although the visual style of it was kind of cheesy, the content was very good, and luckily it's on youtube, so I definitely recommend checking it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15l6yJgYAWA

Best,
Andrew

[drunken boxer]

Thanks for that Andrew, it was interesting - a cue for further thought and study on warfare and Sun Tzu.

[Shaolinfist]

Wow thanks Andrew, that is so funny as I have just spent the past few hours reading a translation! I look forward to watching this tonight.

Phil

[Casper]

Thank you very much for this link Andrew.

Death ground is an important reminder to always give your opponent a chance to flee and never corner him thus leaving him on death ground.

[drunken boxer]

Hey Casper,

Good point that you raised there.

That particular advice I have heard attributed to Sun Tzu many times, sometimes in the form "If your enemy wants to flee across the river, build him a golden bridge."

I have also often heard quoted, one of the lines quoted by a commentator in that documentary about being like a snake, that when its head is attacked it strikes with its tail, when its tail is attacked it strikes with its head, and when its middle is attacked it strikes with head and tail.

But in all the translations of The Art of War that I have read, I have never come across either line spoken by Sun Tzu! However they are so often quoted that I know I must have missed them somehow or read the wrong versions!

I'm just wondering if you (or any other reader) could point me at a translation that contains either of those lines? Even better if there is an online one!

Thanks
Paul

[Casper]

Dear Drunkenboxer,

The only translated version of The Art of War I have is Cai Zhizhong cartoon translation (which is excellent though), but he mentions on page 110 titled "Wage War Like a Serpent" and mentions the snake pit that you also just mentioned. Sadly I can't say what chapter in The Art of War this is in, but it is definitely in it.

With respect,

Casper

[Andrew R]

I'm glad you guys are enjoying the documentary. While the focus of it is on modern battles it really helped me understand everything with a broad perspective, not applying it only to war and fighting but daily life, which is the true value of the text.

I sadly left my copy of the text in storage when I moved recently and now I'm in a location where it's very difficult to get another one. Does anyone know of a good online translation? I've been really eager to read it again and analyze it deeper. For now what I've done is jot down the main points they talk about in the documentary on some index cards and think about them throughout the day to try applying them to daily things. They've been very useful for helping my mother solve issues she's having as a school administrator. For example, the school doesn't have a clear and organized system of leadership and job responsibility, which Sun Tzu says is vital for success.

Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.

Just one example of how Sun Tzu's philosophy is echoed in Sigung's teachings.

Best,
Andrew

[Shaolinfist]

Dear Andrew Sidai,

I am not sure how good a translation it is, but this is the site I was reading up on earlier before I stumbled upon this thread. I found it quite a good read, I hope it is what you are looking for!

Best wishes,
Phil

[Adam Kryder]

I am not sure how good a translation it is

Dear All,

Great Thread!!! Thank you Andrew for starting it.

From my vantage point here is some input.

As I have done more than two years of research in Classical Chinese Military works, I have found that Sun Zi is one of the most misleading texts in Chinese history. This is mainly because the work gives little guidance with context. It was a book meant for emperors and generals who knew the context. And still, even they struggled with it.

It is important to remember that Sun Zi is a complete and integrated system, not just a bunch of quotes thrown together. And though, using some of the quotes in isolation may lead to great benefit. The research to learn it as a system is far greater, and avoids misguided use of the principles contained there within.

In fact even the title "The Art of War" is misleading. The original title is Sun Zi Bing Fa (孫子兵法）which literally means, "The Military Method of Sun Zi". Thus, helping one to understand that although a prolific work, it is not the only one...

If you all want to talk more about military strategy, we should open a new thread!!!
---
In reference to the translation link, I give this translation an "OK" rating. But in general Lionel Giles is a well respected pioneer in Chinese to English Translation. It seems that this has been done by him.

Otherwise, I really look forward to watching the documentary on Youtube.
Thanks for the link.

Best Wishes,

Adam

[Anthony S]

I viewed this DVD in my home with Sifu and some Wahnam students and we all really enjoyed it.


One of the experts in the film, Mark McNeilly, wrote an outstanding book called Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare. In it he groups Sun Tzu's teachings into 6 broad principles with a chapter dedicated to each principle. I think Mr. McNeilly's work is extraordinary reflecting the true understanding of a Master. That is, he made a broad and seemingly complex work simple and easy to understand. Sifu enjoyed reading my copy of the book commenting that it was the best book on the Art of War that he had read in English. I got Sifu a copy of the book to take home. Thus, I highly recommend the book to all. It will certainly give you a very good understanding of Sun Tzu's work and it's remarkable relevance.

[Shaolinfist]

In fact even the title "The Art of War" is misleading. The original title is Sun Zi Bing Fa (孫子兵法）which literally means, "The Military Method of Sun Zi". Thus, helping one to understand that although a prolific work, it is not the only one...

Thank you Adam Sidai for sharing your insights, much appreciated.

Thus, I highly recommend the book to all. It will certainly give you a very good understanding of Sun Tzu's work and it's remarkable relevance.

Thank you very much also Sisook Anthony! I must admit I have been putting off looking into this classic for some time now due to my understanding of the limited availability of good translations and interpretations. I am very much looking forward to getting a copy of this book now though, especially as it is recommended by yourself and Sigung!!

Best regards,
Phil

[drunken boxer]

It is important to remember that Sun Zi is a complete and integrated system, not just a bunch of quotes thrown together. And though, using some of the quotes in isolation may lead to great benefit. The research to learn it as a system is far greater, and avoids misguided use of the principles contained there within.

Great point - I think it is easy for a person to think they are following the advice of Sun Tzu, or take one thing they've done in isolation and relate it to one line from Sun Tzu in isolation. I know I have done this. I thought some things in the documentary could be taken this way, and I wonder what some of the generals being criticised would have made of the scholars who criticise them!

Sifu enjoyed reading my copy of the book commenting that it was the best book on the Art of War that he had read in English.

Brilliant, thank you Siheng I shall order my copy!

[Anthony S]

I should add that there is a complete translation of the The Art of War in one of the appendices of the book. I cannot comment on the quality of this translation, perhaps someone like Adam who speaks Chinese is in a better position to comment on specific translations. The power of Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare is in the explanations and relevant citations made by the author as he presents a logical framework.

There is also an audio version of the book that I got from my local library and it is also very, very well presented. While driving one day from Las Vegas to Aspen, Colorado to do Chi Kung instruction I listened to it in its entirety and thoroughly enjoyed it as well. Another recommendation for those who enjoy audio versions of books.

[drunken boxer]

Dear Anthony Siheng,

I checked online (as I was ordering my copy) and the full translation included in Mark McNeilly's work is by Samuel B Griffiths.
I have read, I think, 7 different translations, and this one is my personal favourite. I can't comment on the quality of the translation not being a Chinese speaker, but the passages just sound better to me in Samuel Griffiths version, they resemble more closely the common quotations of Sun Tzu, and they retain the concise but poetic language, in my opinion.

Paul

[Andrew R]

Mark McNeilly, wrote an outstanding book called Sun Tzu and the Art of Modern Warfare

I was thinking about getting that, I definitely will now. He also wrote a book called "Sun Tzu and the Art of Business" which is probably valuable as well.

I have found that Sun Zi is one of the most misleading texts in Chinese history. This is mainly because the work gives little guidance with context. It was a book meant for emperors and generals who knew the context. And still, even they struggled with it.

Adam Sisook, are there any resources you recommend for better understanding of the text?

Perhaps a thorough discussion of the text on the forum would be useful? It can for sure be hard to follow, and I would certainly appreciate input from others who have read/are reading it to expand my own understanding.

Best,
Andrew