Pulling back punches

[Simon]

I can't remember the thread, and don't have time to go searching for it, but somewhere out there someone commented that in one of the video clips the students seemed to be holding out their arms after doing a 'black tiger' punch. Later in the thread some one else replied that it was only because of the basic level of the sequences/students on the clip.

But it got me thinking. What happens if I do a 'black tiger' and pull it straight back in again? Not alot. Have I ever trained this? No. Why? Err.
Normally, unlike a boxer testing a guard, we flow from one pattern to another. If the defender blocks or counters, my punching arm reacts to counter the counter. If my punch hits the defender or doesn't manage a good counter I can press forward with an attack with the opposite hand retracting my first arm as I do so. Striking with the same hand would take two moves, using the other hand is only one and makes good use of hips to get power.
If the defender managed a weak block I could thread with my other hand and once again open him up for a second attack. If suppose that this thread could be seem as 'asking the way' which also what we do before the first punch. And it's maybe this that makes us different from the boxer. Once we 'ask the way' we are committed. Maybe a boxer's jab is result of his opponent's guard. The jab tests the guard for openning and reactions, once discovered the gaps can then be used. Shaolin has the wonderful principle of not getting hit even once, the boxers guard would not be so good against armed opponents.

The only retracting pattern for an attacking arm that I know is 'flowers in sleeves'. But if my opponent is in my punching range when I punch, I'm also going to be in his range as I retract. So by pressing forward to following straight up with the opposite hand we don't give him that chance to counter however small it might be.

To sum up, I think that: The very idea of quickly pulling back punches has evolved from the boxing image of fighting.

Because of the lack of rules kung fu has a different approach in 'asking the way' and flowing patterns.

Any other ideas anyone?

Oh, yes. You could have this whole debate about kicks as well. The way TKD people etc flick their feet about testing an opponent. Again the result of a sport not a martial art?

Cheers

Simon

[Antonius]

Hey Simon,

Good topic. In my opinion, retracting the arm is a lower level technique. In Karate, we retracted the equivalent of Black Tiger (Reverse Punch) for three main reasons. One, because we needed to pull it back before throwing another strike (external power). Two, because the "snap" back adds more power. And three, because we didn't want to remain open to counter attacks.

Reasons one and two do not matter when you're dealing with internal force. As for reason three, this also doesn't matter when you are skillful in countering counter attacks.

Counters in Kung Fu are far more sophisticated than anything I ever saw in Karate. It's like chess. You plan several moves ahead. Our combat sequences train us to counter the counter to the counter, which in turn will be countered.

I don't mind if my opponent blocks/counters a punch. I was assuming he/she would. The inital punch is just the opening. It's not the end of my attack (or counter-attack). The chess game is just starting.

From my perspective, retracting a punch is a waste of time. It's like retreating immediately after conquering ground. I've just earned that territory by throwing the punch. If I didn't want to claim that territory, then I shouldn't have thrown the punch in the first place. Once I earn the territory, I can use that "ground" to either counter his/her response to my punch, or continue to attack.

On the other hand, I feel that kicks should be speedily retracted. Kicks are not as agile as hands. Leaving a kick out there is a weakness. Not only is it easy to grab, but your groin is open. Furthermore, most of your other "stars" or striking surfaces are disabled while you kick.

Best,

[Guest]

Thank you both for your informative posts. Although I haven't fully understood them, I found them interesting reading.

(If I have understood you and remembered correctly, it was my post, and can be accessed here: http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4444)

James

[Simon]

Dear Siheng,

you have decoded my rambling post and summed it excellently up in a few sentences.

James, I have the same feeling with much of my life. I enjoy it but never really understand it.

Cheers

Simon

[grammatoncleric]

Dear Siheng Simon,

This broken rhythm method of attacking, is the basis of concept called the shredder by Richard Dimitri. Basically you gouge, palm, grab various face appendages of the person, without retracting your hand from their face. It prevents, if done properly and with movement, a gap in time for the opponent to react doesn't exist. He acknowledges that the halfbeat in boxing leaves gap for counter or dodging, the quaterbeat is a continuos attack and if done properly leaves no window to respond.

Just thought you might be interested.

[Simon]

Hi Marcus,

thank you, I am interested it all sounds very nice, "gouge, palm, grab various face appendages of the person, without retracting your hand from their face".

It sounds a little like the flowing pressing attacks of a tiger style. Wasn't Shredder the bad guy from the Teenage Munant Ninja Turtles?

Cheers

Simon

[Grimlock]

Thank you, Sifu (Anthony), for that explanation. I once wondered about this, too, but I accepted that it felt more "right" to not pull back my hand strikes. As I've gotten into the combat sequences, I've also seen firsthand how not withdrawing the strikes can be useful. Your post also helped me see why I might want to counter a black tiger with single knife instead of single tiger (depending on the situation). With single tiger, I give up the ground I have just conquered, whereas with single knife, I keep it.

Marcus, your post got me thinking about the skill of timing in relation to the techniques being executed. I think that ultimately, there is always a gap to exploit if you are skillful enough, regardless of the technique being used.

It sounds a little like the flowing pressing attacks of a tiger style. Wasn't Shredder the bad guy from the Teenage Munant Ninja Turtles?

No offense Marcus, but I think of the same thing as Simon everytime you mention the Shredder. Or as Krang woud say, "Shredddeerrrrr!"

I have also heard of a continuous palm attack from I think Bagua that uses a similar concept.