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I was wondering if anyone had experience in fencing and how would it hold up against the straight sword. I have little knowledge with SS and None with fencing, but from what I have seen the footwork in fencing looks very light and quick, but does it have a root?
The two weapons seem to be used in the same way, application wise, but the fencer seems a lot quick on his feet. Help a brother out and tell me what you think?
I have a good bit of experience as a fencer, but no experience with a 'straight sword'. Of that I can only speak of what I've seen on the web.
The first thing to know is that crossing the feet is either very rare, very risky or downright illegal depending on the fencing weapon you're using.
Proper, traditional Fencing footwork is light, quick and rooted. Such a fencer can move at speed and change direction on the spot in no time, and can spring from a dead halt into a full dive with no projection at all. A lot of modern fencers dance about on their tip toes, have no rooting and can often be seen falling over.
An important point I was taught in fencing (again - I have no knowledge of any other swordsmanship) is that the footwork is often disconnected from the bladework. This means that you can be retreating at speed and as you do you can, without stopping, deliver blows to hamper your opponent. Mind you, stopping dead and sticking your arm out is very effective. Its important to remember that there are no obstacles on the ground in fencing, so moving backwards is not hazardous on that account.
A fencer is a formidable opponent, as has been testified by many of my fencing friends, who have usually done other martial arts.
Hi,
Cheng Man Ching was said to have sparred with a french fencing champion and won.
More recently an article came out in a Mainland Chinese martial arts magazine about Grandmaster Cheng's taijiquan (Hai Wai He Lin 1990 but I can't remember which edition). In this article it talked about Cheng's role as the founder of his own method of taijiquan. So even in China they recognise that Cheng's style is not the same as that of the Yang family. Cheng's 37 posture form now has almost sixty years of history as this article recorded.
The article pointed out that many of Grandmaster's leading students were already experts in external martial arts. For example Huang Hsinghsian was an expert in white crane boxing. Ji Hongbing was an expert in bagua and xingyi. The article also recounts how Cheng Man Ching had a sparring match with a French fencing expert. This Frenchman had won fencing championships. Cheng was advised not to enter such a contest because it was felt that taiji straightsword methods could not compete with western fencing. Cheng, however, insisted, he had no fear. The first time he crossed swords with the Frenchman the Grandmaster cut his wrist. The second time he placed his sword tip on his heart and the third time he was also successful. The Frenchman was very impressed. This is all in this magazine article.
All fencing is applicable, whether taijiquan (jian) or western fencing. If you do not practice with an opponent, then like most jian training today, it is just dance or exercise. Parrying, cutting, jab, etc in foil does have similarities with jian. Saber is comparable to dao with the slashing, etc.
You have more knowledge than me in this, as you have seen it from both sides.
Absolutely agreed on your points regarding fencing.
Please could you comment on differences in how the sword is gripped? From my experience it is an aspect that in fencing it is something specifically taught, and can be crucial to success. Yet in the very small amount on eastern swordsmanship I've seen, the sword is gripped such that there is hardly any finger play. I don't mean that they twiddle it with their fingertips, but that they have strong, manouverable control.
I'd also be interested to hear about your experience of fencing training - were you encouraged to practice (tic-tac? fencing measure drills?) or did you take lessons then free fence (non-fencers: that is sparring).
From what I've see of modern fencing, the use of the jian is entirely different.
The Western equivelent of the jian would be the sidesword or cut-and-thrust sword.
Within some circles of Western swordsmanship, modern fencing is not considered to be "proper" swordsmanship.
The old western methods of using a sword be it a longsword, arming sword rapier, sabre, etc are very effective martial arts.
Last edited by Darren; 10 June 2005, 01:00 PM.
Reason: a
Within some circles of Western swordsmanship, modern fencing is not considered to be "proper" swordsmanship.
I don't know what circles you're talking of, but modern sports fencers commonly seen dancing on their tiptoes trying to flick each other is definitely NOT real swordsmanship IMO.
I am lucky in that all my fencing teachers have been strong advocates of good swordsmanship, as opposed to fashionable styles. The techniques they teach are applicable to using any weapon with bears similar defining characteristics (e.g. point thrust or slashing). I was interested to see in one of the latest Plum Flower Knife video clips, Sigung executing an excellent example of a hanging guard I was recently taught (very useful if your opponent gets their weapon between you and your blade). Kungfu probably has another name for it. In case you're wondering I'm not very proficient at that move yet. Practice needed
However, I have now seen that in fencing, as in Kungfu, it is far better to have the emphasis on practicing skills rather than learning techniques. A lightning fast lunge is better than ten different sorts of footwork. I still have a low opinion of flick hitters, but this concept makes me feel rather cool regarding arguments about techniques and weapons passed down by lineage versus those restored from old fencing manuals.
I also believe that if a Fencing master crosses swords with a Taichichuan master, then the competition is between the masters, not the arts.
I don't know what circles you're talking of, but modern sports fencers commonly seen dancing on their tiptoes trying to flick each other is definitely NOT real swordsmanship IMO.
I am lucky in that all my fencing teachers have been strong advocates of good swordsmanship, as opposed to fashionable styles. The techniques they teach are applicable to using any weapon with bears similar defining characteristics (e.g. point thrust or slashing). I was interested to see in one of the latest Plum Flower Knife video clips, Sigung executing an excellent example of a hanging guard I was recently taught (very useful if your opponent gets their weapon between you and your blade). Kungfu probably has another name for it. In case you're wondering I'm not very proficient at that move yet. Practice needed
However, I have now seen that in fencing, as in Kungfu, it is far better to have the emphasis on practicing skills rather than learning techniques. A lightning fast lunge is better than ten different sorts of footwork. I still have a low opinion of flick hitters, but this concept makes me feel rather cool regarding arguments about techniques and weapons passed down by lineage versus those restored from old fencing manuals.
I also believe that if a Fencing master crosses swords with a Taichichuan master, then the competition is between the masters, not the arts.
Regards,
Chris.
In a jian form I learned there is an expicit hanging guard. I'm unsure of the Chinese name for it.
There are a lot of similarities between western and eastern swordsmanship.
The main differences in various styles of swordplay tend to come from differing physical properties of the weapons.
Can you tell me more about modern fencing versus "traditional" fencing? Why would they want to go on the balls of their feet and flick the opponent? Also is a foil a point thrust or slashing weapon? Are the blocks different if it is a point thrust or slashing weapon?
Thank you,
Divineshadow
"Om"
I pay homage to all the great masters of the past and the present
Can you tell me more about modern fencing versus "traditional" fencing?
This would be open to a lot of discussion, but here's one angle on it. I'll concentrate on foillists.
Traditional or classic fencing is seen in the image of a fencer in a sort of angled goat stance, with guard (poise) position in which they point the foil in the region of their opponents face. When they attack they are trying to thrust the weapon onto the target "with the nature of penetration" - showing that a real hit would have caused a wound, and the body is centrally balanced. Defence is seen in quick, smart 'simple parries' or in 'circular parries' which pick up the opponents blade to push it out of the way. All this can be done at lightning speed with devastating accuracy.
Modern fencing is seen where the guard position is on tiptoes, the fencer is bouncing up and down and holds the sword either hanging down in front, or upwards like a raised pistol. Their 'whip' attack will look like someone fly fishing, as they try to get their specially made springy foil to whip round their opponents guard and register a hit in the microsecond the tip makes contact. I've never seen any attempt at defence.
Originally posted by divineshadow
Why would they want to go on the balls of their feet and flick the opponent?
I have never seen anyone teach this. It grows out of someones decision to discard the teaching passed down through the ages, and as far as I can tell is learnt by observing others.
Rather than 'flicking' lets talk about 'whip hits' (as described above), which many say are the same thing. A whip hit is extremely difficult to parry, and so became a popular way of scoring. It can also be enhanced by 'buying specialist equipment' as opposed to 'practicing'.
Whip hits can also hurt: its like being shot with an air rifle. By doing this they hope to subdue their opponent.
Defence against whip attacks lies in getting in very close with good timing, or parrying extra wide. Whip attacks are not combat efficient in any way, and rely on the rules of fencing to survive. A good martial artist (even unarmed) would easily get inside their guard and they would be defenceless.
Recently the rules of fencing changed such that the point has to be in contact with the target longer in order to register a hit. This means whip attacks no longer work.
Originally posted by divineshadow
Also is a foil a point thrust or slashing weapon?
Fool and epee are point only, sabre is a slashing and point weapon.
Originally posted by divineshadow
Are the blocks different if it is a point thrust or slashing weapon?
The main difference is actually in where the point is. Foil and epee the point should stay focused on the target, but in sabre the point can be up in the air.
Thank you for the enlightening information. Since we are comparing weapons and methods I was wondering if one could send chi to the point of an epee / foil the same way an internal martial artist could with a straight sword. I have never tried it (and as of right now lack the ability to do so) but this seems possible in theory what do you guys think?
Divineshadow
"Om"
I pay homage to all the great masters of the past and the present
Once you have acquired sufficient internal development to have a consolidated and compressed volume of chi to mentally direct outward through the hands...it is absolutely possible to issue such energy to the focal point of your choice....whether that is the tip of a foil...the tip of a straight sword...the tip of a calligraphy brush...or the tip of your finger!
Since metal is such a wonderful conductor of electro-magnetic chi energy ...anything made from metal is an especially easy medium through which to transmit chi energy . However...in the end (pun intended)...it is the skill method...not the medium of expression which determines success!
Not neccessarily on topic, but interesting none the less.
I was talking with one of my friends who fences and comparing ways in which classes and teaching was done (as well as the pro's and con's of both arts). He was telling me that the classes in Edinburgh were taught in a more informal way that I expected, usually people making their own efforts to practice or teach and that it was very common for people to be doing their own thing.
On one occassion, he saw a new face in the class and being a friendly sort, he wandered over to chat to the person, explain the class and point out the more senior practitioners there. After a short chat, he asked the other person if they fenced (which they did) and asked them if they wanted to practice (which they agreed to). He was very surprised when the other person took out black clothing/armour and later found out that this is the sign of a fencing master (corrections if needed please) and is a title that is usually given by peers, not by person.
Despite being suddenly deluged with new training partners and potential conversations, they still went ahead with their practice session and in the resulting exchange, the other person used only one technique 'parry, riposte' and won clearly and cleanly, then was gracious enough to correct my friends techniques and offer some suggestions and advice.
I've always liked this story and since fencing is sometimes viewed as the Gentleman's Art in Western Europe, I also enjoyed that friendship and politeness can bring great benefit in every Art, especially in showing kindness to a complete stranger.
I do not know the diference between modern and traditional fencing but the foil grip is not much different from the jian hand positioning. From my perspective the foil grip may be considered a one finger sword hand while the jian is a two finger sword hand.
Sometimes the slow jian form as practiced is not realistic (Yang style) but it looks and feels nice while the Chen jian form is more applicable to foil fencing.
Fencing is foil attempts to use the strength of the opponent to trap him through feints and parrying and immediate and fast thrusts.
My teacher's daughter (a former Hungarian champion) was far faster than myself though my strength equalled her but her moves were good enough for me to respect how she learnt and put into effect the lithe movement the call and response (riposte) done in an almost semi conscious mode. I say it may be similar to when touching a snake, it automatically responds and you are shocked it struck so fast!
The tiptoe foot positioning in tournaments is only for that venue but quick responses need agile positioning. I see it as more waist/qua with immediate extension of upper body but people have different ways of acquiring the skills based on their body frame and native ability.
It is about training not chi though I guess chi can be used to mirror what the jian is supposed to do but rarely accomplishes. I have looked at Asian foil fencers and their techniques mirror western foil techniques though I have seen some quaint expression of jian techniques that do not occir in regular training. Perhapos they have merged both jian or western training!
Parrying and circular movements are in neijiquan and one does not necessarily push the opponents blade. You can go over or under the blade then extend into the opponent but it is more effective if done at an angle. That is why in en garde position one presents a side facade (not full frontal) to have less of a target to the opponent.
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