What is genuine, traditional Taijiquan?

[Andrew]

All your points are excellent but I have nevr been graceful in any encounter and hope I will never be when confronted with street thugs because that is their modus operandi.

I am sad to read this. It means you feel you must lower yourself to the level of your attackers in order to survive.

Chi or internal force does not work in this scanario but it does work with cooperative students in a school setting.

You admit that you have no experience of chi and internal force yet make such a sweeping (and incorrect) statement. I wonder why .

Harmonious chi has no place in the street because ultimately the other has a weapon.

Again a completely incorrect statement. Harmonious chi has a place everywhere and in every situation. If you chi is flowing harmoniously you have one of the basic ingredients for health, vitality and mental clarity. Mental clarity, in particular, together with internal force (also needs harmonious chi flow for optimum usage) are key for combat efficiency, correct judgement, timing, spacing, etc. . And you say this has no place in the street

Andrew

[Antonius]

It is interesting how a simple statement can clearly reveal a person's experience (or lack thereof) with internal force. Yeniseri's statements in this thread make it clear that he has no experience with internal force. Similarly, some of the statements that Paul (Kaitain) made earlier were also revealing. Here are two examples from Yeniseri's posts:

Chi or internal force does not work in this scanario but it does work with cooperative students in a school setting.

it was stated that "A true internal martial arts master at 60 years old would be much more powerful than when he was 30" but this is not so. Power in IMA is either overestimated and underestimated in that a skillful master uses the momentum of the other as opposed to 'power' (perhaps use of the word power is just semantics!).

Chi and internal force are often mentioned in kung fu schools, particularly taijiquan schools. Sadly, many schools have little or no experience of them. Some of these people, including instructors, may have spent years searching for a genuine experience of chi or internal force. After spending 10 or 20 years searching, they eventually conclude that "chi" and "internal force" are just poetic Chinese phrases to describe body mechanics and blood flow.

We are so lucky. In Shaolin Wahnam, all of us, even beginners, experience chi and internal force. To us, these are not just poetic phrases. I have described my own personal experiences with internal forece many times on this forum. And my experience are by no means unusual. If anything, they are the norm in Shaolin Wahnam.

Interestingly, Sifu recently released a video taken about 25 years ago showing Wong Yin Tat demonstrating Iron Shirt. If you watch the video, you can see Lek Por striking Yin Tat with several flying kicks, in addition to others striking him with punches an regular kicks.

Among all the strikes in the video, the flying kicks are significant. Flying kicks are among the most powerful techniques that can be performed without internal force because they land with the person's full weight, momentum, and body force. Flying kicks like the ones Lek Por uses in the video might break an ordinary person's back, but Yin Tat was not injured at all.

The significance of the flying kicks goes even further. Skeptics watching the video (including instructors who talk about internal force but have no experience of it) can argue that the punches are being pulled. Of course, they are not being pulled, but this is hard to see in a video, especially an old one.

However, there is no way to pull a flying kick. It either hits, or it misses. And you can clearly see Yin Tat's body being hit violently by the flying kicks. These details are important. What you are seeing in this video is a genuine demonstration of Iron Shirt (which is quite different than the demonstrations often shown by the modern Shaolin wushu monks).

Internal force is real. It is not a poetic way to describe body mechanics or blood flow. Nor is it a "lost skill" as Yeniseri suggested. It is very much alive in Shaolin Wahnam. I would suggest that students of Shaolin Wahnam take a moment during their next practice session to express gratitude towards our past masters, particularly Sifu Wong, for helping us to find what others have not found even with 10 or 20 years of searching.

[Charles David]

Hear Hear

[Kevin]

Just a few quick questions for Sifu Korahais, and any other Wahnam Sifus if they'd like to respond.
I was watching that old video demonstration of Iron Shirt by GrandMaster Wong's student. As he was being punched and kicked, the topic of internal force, chi, etc. came to me..and brought some questions to my mind. I'll try to ask them in a simple manner, but no promises.

Were those who were doing the punching/kicking also GrandMaster Wong's students? If so, were the punches/kicks they were delivering purely physical, or were they executed with internal force?

If the strikes were executed with internal force, and the student was using Iron Shirt, did the internal force bounce back on those doing the striking?

If someone who has trained, and can apply, internal force in punches and kicks wanted to just punch or kick someone purely physically, with no chi/internal force, is that possible? Or once you have internal force, like GrandMaster Wong and the Wahnam Sifus, is that internal force/chi always going to come through your punches/kicks, no matter what?

Assuming those doing the punching/kicking in that video had and were using internal force in their strikes, would they have to have less internal force/power than the one demonstrating the Iron Shirt, in order not to hurt him. For example, both Sifu Korahais and Sifu Kai Uwe have internal force, but (from what I've read on the Forum) Sifu Kai has much more internal force, so if he hit Sifu Korahais (even though Sifu Korahais has internal force) Sifu Kai's strike would hurt him because he has more internal force. But even though Sifu Kai's internal force is extremely powerful, if GrandMaster Wong were to strike him, much damage would be done, because GrandMaster Wong's internal force is even more powerful?

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my questions.

Best wishes,
Kevin

[Antonius]

These are good questions, Kevin.

Sifu's training methods were quite different 25 years ago. This is one of the things that I most respect about Sifu -- that he is constantly perfecting himself, and that includes his teaching methods. Even in the ~9 years I've been with him, I've watched his methods constantly improve.

Back when that video was taken, not all of Sifu's students had a lot of internal force. Some did, some didn't. Wong Yin Tat specialized in Iron Shirt. Other students had other specialities.

Iron Shirt is not as effective against internal force, but Yin Tat had a lot more force than any of the other students. It's a tricky equation, but ultimately, the one with more force will "win". Actually, this reminds me of a story Sifu told me about Wong Yin Tat. Despite Yin Tat's Iron Shirt, Sifu once injured him with a seemingly gentle of his Cosmos Palm. Sifu's Cosmos Palm penetrated Yin Tat's Iron Shirt quite easily.

In this particular instance, Sifu was intentionally using his internal force, although he was not trying to hurt Yin Tat. (He was generously giving Yin Tat a demonstration of internal force.) If Yin Tat had stayed relaxed, he would have been fine, and the force would have passed through. But because Yin Tat tensed up at the last moment, the force got stuck, and he was injured as a result.

Can I strike someone without internal force? It's a good question, and I'm not sure I know the answer. If you mean, can I hit someone in a controlled fashion and not project force, then yes. I do that in sparring. But if you mean, can I hit someone full power (like in the video) and not use internal force, then I'm not sure.

Any volunteers?

[Antonius]

Ah, the miracles of Google. Seek, and ye shall find (in roughly 10 seconds).

You can read about the story I described in my last post (about Sifu injuring Wong Yin Tat with his Cosmos Palm) here:

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04a/may04-3.html

Enjoy.

[Kevin]

Thank you for your quick reply Sifu Korahais. I posted those questions right before I went to lunch, and when I came back, they were answered! Can't beat that turn-around.

As far as you not using internal force when striking, I was meaning could you hit someone full (physical) power, such as body mechanics, putting all of your weight into the strike, etc., without using any internal force? But I suppose that's an intellectual question, because I don't know about anyone else, but I sure don't want to volunteer for that experiment.

Thanks again,
Kevin

[Antidote]

I used to buy a magazine called TaiChi Magazine, it's a very famous magazine about tai chi chuan. It has interviews and articles written by famous masters and Grandmasters.

I stoped buying the magazine because it was rare to find an article mentioning internal force or chi. The majority of masters and grandmasters resumed all to body mechanics and kinetic energy.

So I understand why it's common to tai chi students and intructors not believe in chi and internal force. Their masters and grandmasters, wich are autorities in their respectives lineages do not believe in chi too or do not teach it and not talk openly about that.

Blessings

Antidote

[yeniseri]

graet point

Sifu Andrew,

We all possess qi and that is absolute. The insubstantial or substancial expreience of it is based on the skills we develop to "enhance this qi". It is obvious we all have varying degrees of experience and knowledge of it and that is fine also.
It is OK to believe what we want to believe but we should not be surprised at the result. All your responses are right on since your experiences are just that. I salut you for sharing.

[Antonius]

Dear Kevin,

could you hit someone full (physical) power, such as body mechanics, putting all of your weight into the strike, etc., without using any internal force?

I can now. Sifu kindly sent me an email explaining how to do this. There are two methods:

1. Purposely tense your muscles while you strike. This will interrupt the flow of chi, thus preventing the flow of internal force.
2. Purposely use your intent to stop the flow of internal force at the shoulder or elbow.

With both methods, one would need to do Lifting The Sky afterwards to clear the resulting blockage.

It's funny. The first method is bascially what we did in Karate. The second method is something that never occurred to me, although it makes perfect sense. I guess I'm just not one of those people who stops a sneeze midway.

Best,

[Kevin]

Thank you Sifu Korahais, and GrandMaster Wong, for answering my question. I know that both of you are busy men, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
I realize that you'd probably never need, or want, to deliver a purely physical strike now that you have, and can use, internal force. It doesn't sound like either of those 2 methods would be very healthy or have a positive effect. But my intellectual curiosity just got the better of me.

Thanks again,
Kevin

[yeniseri]

definition in order; please excuse ignorance

What is the opposite of a purely physical strike? When I hit someone, that is a physical strike. If I do not, then nothing! no strike.

[Kevin]

Yeniseri, I'm not sure if you were addressing that question to me, a Wahnam Sifu, or anyone in general. So I thought I'd give my answer.

You asked what is the opposite of a purely physical strike. Here's what I had in mind-
Take two people who have no training in Internal Martial Arts, Chi Kung, Internal Force, etc. It could be two guys in a street fight, two Boxers, even two Karate men. When they're sparring or fighting, and they punch one another, they are using physical strikes/force. Yes, a professional boxer is going to punch alot harder and with alot more power than a person with no boxing, fighting, marital arts experience..but it's still physical power. The boxer knows the body mechanics of how to throw his hip, and all of his bodyweight, into his punch, so he's hitting with his whole body, instead of just his hand/arm. Again, though, this is physical power. It's like a speeding car hitting a wall. The car is the power/punch..BAM..into the wall.

On the other hand (and this is intellectual as I don't have any experience, training, or practice with internal power) someone who has trained and practiced an art which develops chi/internal force, such as Shaolin Wahnam and Wahnam TaiChiChuan, does not rely on physical force to make a punch powerful and effective. Their power comes from a smooth flow of chi, relaxed and focused mind, and internal force.

The boxers punch with his arm/fist is like a car hitting a wall, external, plain and simple. When a person with internal force punches, the arm/hand are merely the "delivery" system of the internal force which comes from inside them, through their body, into the opponent. So the internal force person's arm/hand is merely the gun, whereas the internal force is the bullet.

I realize my examples aren't the best, so hopefully a Wahnam Sifu will be kind enough to respond to your question as well.

Best,
Kevin

[Andrew]

I realize my examples aren't the best, so hopefully a Wahnam Sifu will be kind enough to respond to your question as well.

Thanks for your answers Kevin. They are very good.

Andrew

[yeniseri]

hard head sorry

All striking is physical. I rarely uses a fist because my hands are too soft but is my palm strike efficient? I have no idea.

There are ways of efficient striking but it is still striking.