Steel Praying Mantis

[Shaolinfist]

I would imagine that Sifu's golden bell would be sufficient to deflect a small accidental tap from someone of his own level of force.

[steve]

I would imagine that Sifu's golden bell would be sufficient to deflect a small accidental tap from someone of his own level of force.

When skill is equal, the magical effect falls back into the realm of normal. Two internal masters of equal skill in a fight would have work harder in order to over come the other.

There are a number of factors (speed, timing, etc) needed to be proficient in MA. Everybody has these factors in different ratios. If certain factors are naturally high then they are seen as attributes. Training is used to improve these attributes and areas which are lacking.

A person may be nonathletic, big, aggressive and have a vicious hard punch. He may be able to win most fights because of his size, bad attitude and ability to cause damage. A smaller person who is athletic, fast and has good technique that is fairly powerful, may be able to out perform the bigger person. He may do this by avoiding being hit and by landing multiple strikes which would eventually wear the bigger person down.

If the big person started to train. Became more athletic and sorted his technique out. The fight with the smaller person would most probably change. Unless the smaller person improved a factor or factors to give him the advantage again.

Internal force is a very useful factor in MA. But it's one factor. Take for e.g. a top heavy weight MMA fighter, say for debate sake, he's all "external". His game is proven to be at a high level when it comes to technique (stand up, clinch and ground), timing, application of strength, speed, explosiveness, integrated use of kinetic muscle chains (whole body behind techniques), and tough as nails. For someone who is only (lacks size, external strength, contact training, etc) "internally" skilled with technique, would have to be very very proficient in this one factor to over come the MMA fighter. (thread on how to deal with a slugger)

What would happen if the MMA fighter started practicing internal force exercises? Would his game improve making it even harder for the internal MA to deal with him? Or would he be unable to reach a high level internally because of his external practice?

[Daoist]

Hello Steve,

Let's say for example someone has trained Iron Palm (the internal way) for several years (7 - 10). This person has never sparred or fought in his/her life. This person is facing an external martial artist who is very skilled and very experienced in real fights, like you said.

According to Sun Tzu, the Iron Palm master will have a 50/50 chance of winning. "He knows himself but does not know his adversary" because he has never fought before.

The external martial artist is almost sure of victory, however, because "he knows himself and his adversary", having much experience in fighting.

This can be a complex issue if looked at in a complicated way. It is basically power(chi) vs technique and experience. The external martial artist has the edge, but the Iron Palm master would only need one strike to any part of the body to cause tremendous damage.

The reason why I chose Iron Palm master to represent internal martial artists is to simplify the situation. Practicing iron palm itself without sparring will do you only a little good in a fight. However, practicing internal martial arts without sparring is a more complex issue because you are practicing chi gong, technique, and fighting skills already.

As far as the external martial artist converting to the internal martial arts....

He would have to start all over. The internal martial arts, or the way I learned it, are on an entirely different level. Internal arts cultivate chi. It is the driving force behind everything (techniques, fighting skills, etc.). The external martial arts that he had learned would do him little good as a base for learning a Daoist art. Although he could learn Shaolin and a few things might transfer. But again we are talking about a style that cultivates chi (shaolin) rather than solely based on external strength, technique, skill, etc.

Sorry for the long post. This can be a complex issue.

[Luo Lang]

A person may be nonathletic

It always a matter of perspective. What is athletic? Athletic is most of the time directly connected with fitness. Again what is fitness. In our society fitness is directly connected with a perfect body, lot of structured muscles less fat. A person may be fit, full of fitness but yet he may not be healthy.

Why? Because with structred muscles which are obviously nice to watch, it's most probably sure that the person is tensed. Both tension and big mass lock the energy. This locked energy is not able to be used for organs.

To compare bodies and to analyse from that if someone is skillful is not easy and no guaranty. The bigger sized one could beat the athletic one easily up, Vise verse of course is aslo possible. All in all it's a matter of skills, force (internal one) speed and at the end tactics and strategies. The marvellous can beat speed, speed can beat force, force can beat technique.

To give you an example: watch old chackie chan movie with samo hung...Samo Hung is what we would call well feeded...but his speed power elegance is extraordinary high. In Ip Man 2, he was the one who impressed me the most. His performance was better than the one of the Wing Chun Master.

[steve]

It is a tricky subject to debate. Like I said, so many factors involved.

What is athletic?

I gave a generalized example - I get your point - basically meant the lazy fat slob vs the Bruce Lee type guy - a comparison in different attributes, which may swing the fight one way or the other.

I hear what you saying, don't be fooled by external appearances.

He would have to start all over.

Sifu Kai still utilizes his jujitsu, but probably in a more internal way.

but the Iron Palm master would only need one strike to any part of the body to cause tremendous damage.

Only if he's extremely good I imagine, never seen it in action. Remember the external MA will also have a level of iron shirt from his conditioning.

What I'm trying to say, it's hard to fight someone that has the same level of skill as you. Be it external skills or internal. I'm also saying there are different ingredients in the mix. You may have slightly more internal force than your opponent, but he may have longer reach. He hits you 3 times to your one, which may take away from your internal edge.

When UFC started the Gracies were cleaning up because nobody knew how to fight like that. When people received the same training, it wasn't so easy anymore.

Same thing happens at tai chi. The seniors are able to push beginners around with ease in push hands . The beginner after a certain amount of training isn't such a push over anymore. If he had some natural attributes e.g. low centre of gravity, he may surpass some of the lower seniors after a period.

[Daoist]

Only if he's extremely good I imagine, never seen it in action. Remember the external MA will also have a level of iron shirt from his conditioning.

Iron palm practiced internally is a high level skill. Using chi, it needs no external momentum to generate power. The momentum of the chi is manifested internally out in a very small space. External iron shirt is effective against external strikes, not so much against internal strikes. Specialized/specific internal skills like iron palm can even penetrate internal iron shirt (golden bell). The chi from an iron palm strike would flow through the skin, muscles and damage the organs. That is why I said that internal martial arts/skills are on another level with different "rules" so to speak.

As far as tui shou/tui so/push hands, again it is the chi flowing through the body that gives a tui shou practicioner his/her power. The more time spent practicing, the more the chi is accumulated. More often than not, the senior student would be more skilled and more powerful than the junior student in tui shou because of time spent cultivating the chi. That is, if the senior and junior student put in roughly the same amount of time each day practicing chi gong/tui so/etc.

[Daoist]

I read your recent post again Steve and I agree that external things like reach, height and weight matter. But with external strength there is a limit. There is no limit to the amount of chi one can cultivate (theoretically).

[steve]

Agreed

[Luo Lang]

I am happy we all agree!! seldom but very beneficial.

[steve]

Same story, similar and varying views.

To sum up my view.
On Sifu Wong's course, Sifu mentioned that if someone only trained chi kung and developed a high level of internal force, it wasn't enough to beat someone who was skilled in combat technique with no/low internal force. (unquote) Meaning the chi kung practitioner needs combat technique to be able to use the internal force in combat.

When two internal MA with equal internal force face up, the internal force advantage is neutralize. Other factors then come into play, perhaps technique, or reach, etc, which may give the one MA the edge.

My question was, would size make a difference.

Phil said yes; the bigger person is at a disadvantage, being slower.

Roland said yes and no; as we know most of the time in life things are not equal - the bigger clone would have more force, but the smaller clone would be faster.

Daoist said no; physical size, physical strength, physical etc, doesn't play a part, different rules - the person that trains and develops more internal force has the advantage, regardless of size.

I say; there are a number of tools that are needed in combat - internal force is a good tool, but only one - I believe through experience that size plays a part - a naturally strong and big man that has integrated his strength with internal force becomes hellish difficult to deal with combat.